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The NEW 4 Step Proof for God
Posted: 07 February 2011 02:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]
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noselfwilling - 06 February 2011 04:21 AM
Rocinante - 05 February 2011 07:12 PM

People of this era have sworn that they saw Jim Jones raise people from the dead.  Therefore, by your “logic” Jim Jones must have raised people from the dead.  No other explanation could ever trump eyewitnesses.  Hey, ever been to a magic show?  You’d be the perfect spectator since you would think everything is real and are conceited enough to believe you can’t be fooled!

I just went to the wiki site for Jim Jones who hated Christianity and nothing about any resurrection claims. Let me know if you find a naturalistic explanation for the alleged magic shown nearly 2000 years ago for the discliples claiming they had seen, talked with, touched and walked with Jesus in various group settings over 40 days and willingly died for that eyewitness testimony. The burden is on you. Are you up to the challenge? or will you continue to shut your mind down.

That means the 9/11 hijackers died for the truth.  You must accept everything the 9/11 hijackers stood for as the absolute truth since “people don’t willingly die for what they know is a lie.”  The 9/11 hijackers also could not have been deceived in any way in regards to their beliefs.

I am sure they 911 hijackers died for what they believed to be the truth. Does it make it true? No, for they had no evidence for beliefs, so it was assumed.

Whereas the disciples willingly died for their own eyewitness testimony in various group settings, but no known naturalistic explanation can account for it. Group hallucination, Swoon theory, Fraud Theory, Legends Theory even Combination Theory all fail. That’s why scholars can’t find a viable naturalistic explanation which should be fairly easy to determine if Jesus didn’t rise from the dead.

Christians win. It’s awesome!

You have no evidence for your beliefs, judging by these outdated arguments. You’ve taken things that we don’t know the answer to yet and pencilled in god. You’ve taken things we do know the answers to, struck out the answers, and pencilled in god. I don’t accept your eyewitness testimony, once we cancel out the impossibility of someone rising from the dead, the lack of verifiable writings at the time, the inherent problems with eyewitness testimony, about anything, and, possibly, ergot poisoning.


C

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Posted: 07 February 2011 02:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]
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noselfwilling - 06 February 2011 08:30 PM

...the original apostles truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

[Emphasis added.]

They also believed the Earth was flat.  But believing something doesn’t necessary make it true. 

And you have now conveniently ignored the fact that more people than the apostles were eyewitnesses to Jim Jones resurrecting multiple dead people (in various group settings!) after I pointed out your pathetic 5-second wiki site search was only the barest of the bare when it comes to any type of information. 

How do you explain modern eyewitness accounts (of people still around!) who were first-hand eyewitnesses to Jim Jones resurrecting dead people in various group settings? 

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Posted: 07 February 2011 02:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]
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Bees Mom - 07 February 2011 02:34 AM

judging by these outdated arguments. You’ve taken things that we don’t know
C

The oldies are the goodies.

The evidence that was presented nearly 2000 years ago remains unchallenged today. If nature always existed, we would have happened already having had an eternity to do so, so nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is whom we call the uncreated Creator—both uncreated and creator. This is whom we call God.

Now that you know God exists found out who He is, where does He reveal Himself?

Jesus did not rise from the dead naturally but supernaturally.

The books of the New Testament corroborate and verify each other. They were the contemporary writings of the day.

There is no inherent problems with eyewitness testimony. Groups of people see things all the time. The world saw the space shuttle explode. This was multiply attested.

Likewise the disciples testified to having seen Jesus alive from the dead in 12 different group settings. Since there is no naturalistic explanation that can account for this such as group hallucinations, when you cancel out all possibilities you are left with what you considered to be impossible, that being Jesus raised Himself from the because He is God and died on the cross for the sins of the world.

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Posted: 07 February 2011 03:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]
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Rocinante - 07 February 2011 02:39 AM

They also believed the Earth was flat.  But believing something doesn’t necessary make it true. 

And you have now conveniently ignored the fact that more people than the apostles were eyewitnesses to Jim Jones resurrecting multiple dead people (in various group settings!) after I pointed out your pathetic 5-second wiki site search was only the barest of the bare when it comes to any type of information. 

How do you explain modern eyewitness accounts (of people still around!) who were first-hand eyewitnesses to Jim Jones resurrecting dead people in various group settings?

In the Bible they believed the earth was round as there was one account of a ship merchant noticing the curvature of the sea off into the distance. Curvature means it is round.

Likewise the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. Since no naturalistic explanation can account for this such as group hallucinations, you know it is true Jesus raised Himself from the dead.

Not aware of any Jim Jones resurrections; it’s not mentioned on the wiki page for him or in the references I could find. It must be a secret. But with Jesus it was openly declared, so much so the disciples willingly died for it.

The Bible is the freest book in the world so you can read through the testimonies of the resurrection appearances for Jesus.

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Posted: 07 February 2011 03:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]
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noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 02:56 AM

The evidence that was presented nearly 2000 years ago remains unchallenged today. If nature always existed, we would have happened already having had an eternity to do so, so nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is whom we call the uncreated Creator—both uncreated and creator. This is whom we call God.

The basic assumption you have made here is flawed. Whether or not the universe was here for eternity (it wasn’t) or came into existence at a particular time (seems that way, yep) we, meaning humans, wouldn’t have had an eternity to be here, because WE have only existed for a very short time. I have no idea why you think eternity means more us time.

Jesus did not rise from the dead naturally but supernaturally.

Yeah, prove ANYTHING is supernatural first.

The books of the New Testament corroborate and verify each other. They were the contemporary writings of the day.

No, they weren’t.

There is no inherent problems with eyewitness testimony. Groups of people see things all the time. The world saw the space shuttle explode. This was multiply attested.

Eyewitness testimony is regarded to be extremely problematic and unreliable, even when the actual eyewitnesse can actually be interviewed..

[ Edited: 07 February 2011 03:43 AM by Bees Mom ]
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Posted: 07 February 2011 04:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]
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Bees Mom - 07 February 2011 03:10 AM

The basic assumption you have made here is flawed. Whether or not the universe was here for eternity (it wasn’t) or came into existence at a particular time (seems that way, yep) we, meaning humans, wouldn’t have had an eternity to be here, because WE have only existed for a very short time. I have no idea why you think eternity means more us time.

If there was a past eternity (which you agree there isn’t), you would have come into being before now, having had an eternity to do so. But since you agree infinite regress is false we can move on. And that’s true we have only been here a short while but if there was an infinite regress, mankind would have approximated into that alleged past eternity and not still be sinning to the extent we still do along the exponential progression of conscience we are clearly on. That’s more “us time”.

The universe can’t come into existence from nothing, because that which does not exist can’t cause anything. It doesn’t exist.

So since nature can’t always have existed, nor start up from nothing, it needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is whom we call the uncreated Creator or God.

Now that we know God exists find out who God is. Jesus.

Yeah, prove ANYTHING is supernatural first.

The uncreated is supernatural not natural because it exists outside of time and space. And you know Jesus is supernatural because man can’t resurrect Himself. Only God can.

The books of the New Testament corroborate and verify each other. They were the contemporary writings of the day.

No, they weren’t.

Yes they were. The burden is on you to show otherwise.

Eyewitness testimony is regarded to be extremely problematic and unreliable, even when the actual eyewitnesse can actually be interviewed..

There is no problem with eyewitness testimony at all when they are in multiple different group settings. While one person can hallucinate, group hallucinations are impossible according to modern psychology.

You are stuck at square 1. You would need to find a naturalistic explanation for the original of the discples. Because you fail to do so, you can see why people are Christians by this evidence.

[ Edited: 07 February 2011 04:12 AM by noselfwilling ]
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Posted: 07 February 2011 05:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]
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There was no eyewitness testimony.  None of the writers of the Bible were eyewitnesses and Paul even says he wasn’t an eyewitness, even scholars and theologians say this.  If I didn’t have to get ready for work, I’d look up chapter and verse for you where Paul says this.  I hate to tell you this, but the Bible isn’t the inerrant word of God.  It is the very errant word of humans.

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Posted: 07 February 2011 05:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]
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noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 12:00 AM

Why do people fell compelled to troll? Just don’t post and move along.

Excuse me, but you were the one who dropped in trying to prove God to people, so Ex-Machina, although funny, is right.  So, I have to ask, who’s calling the kettle black, Pot?

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Posted: 07 February 2011 08:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]
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Mriana - 07 February 2011 05:26 AM

There was no eyewitness testimony.  None of the writers of the Bible were eyewitnesses and Paul even says he wasn’t an eyewitness, even scholars and theologians say this.  If I didn’t have to get ready for work, I’d look up chapter and verse for you where Paul says this.  I hate to tell you this, but the Bible isn’t the inerrant word of God.  It is the very errant word of humans.

Paul said he was an eyewitness. Read 1 Cor. 15. He also said he spent 15 days with Peter who was an eyewitness, and with James and John who were eyewitnesses. All the original Apostles were eyewitnesses. This is something scholars and theologians are unanimous about that they truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. I hate to tell you this for your sake that the Bible is the inerrant word of God because that means you are going to Hell.

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Posted: 07 February 2011 10:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]
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noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 08:11 AM

that means you are going to Hell.

That also means I am going skiing this Sunday morning instead of going to a church. Thanks God for making me an atheist.

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Posted: 07 February 2011 10:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]
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noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 08:11 AM
Mriana - 07 February 2011 05:26 AM

There was no eyewitness testimony.  None of the writers of the Bible were eyewitnesses and Paul even says he wasn’t an eyewitness, even scholars and theologians say this.  If I didn’t have to get ready for work, I’d look up chapter and verse for you where Paul says this.  I hate to tell you this, but the Bible isn’t the inerrant word of God.  It is the very errant word of humans.

Paul said he was an eyewitness. Read 1 Cor. 15. He also said he spent 15 days with Peter who was an eyewitness, and with James and John who were eyewitnesses. All the original Apostles were eyewitnesses. This is something scholars and theologians are unanimous about that they truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. I hate to tell you this for your sake that the Bible is the inerrant word of God because that means you are going to Hell.


Of all the ridiculous Christian beliefs, the idea of hell is the one I consider the most ridiculous. There is no hell, that’s a complete myth made up to torture children into believing. Unfortunately, you’ll never know, because when you’re dead, you’ll just be dead.

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Posted: 07 February 2011 10:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]
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Bees Mom - 07 February 2011 10:27 AM

Of all the ridiculous Christian beliefs, the idea of hell is the one I consider the most ridiculous. There is no hell, that’s a complete myth made up to torture children into believing. Unfortunately, you’ll never know, because when you’re dead, you’ll just be dead.

If there is no hell then you don’t have free will to be eternally separated from God, but you are something closer to a robot. God is not the god of robots, but the God of sovereign free willed beings.

Since Jesus was resurrected and He said we would be resurrected then we will. God created the soul permanently existing.

And it would be evil of God to give us God-consciousness in our spirit, awareness of Him, only to let us be annihilated. That would be like having a child but telling them at the age of 12 they will need to be put to sleep permamently. What love is that?

The first two souls that had God-consciousness were Adam and Eve about 6000 years ago, the line through whom Jesus would be born.

There is nothing for you to be upset about. It’s true. Praise the Lord!

[ Edited: 07 February 2011 10:33 AM by noselfwilling ]
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Posted: 07 February 2011 11:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]
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excuse me for trolling here big N. but,
Have you ever considered that faith in some real interactive God is the ultimate human ego trip and is far more a reflection of how full of ourselves we can get than about anything beyond our scope.

Oh, and how pray tell can the Bible be the literal word of God when there are so many variations?  Will the real freakin Bible please stand up.

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Posted: 07 February 2011 11:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 07 February 2011 11:15 AM

excuse me for trolling here big N. but,
Have you ever considered that faith in some real interactive God is the ultimate human ego trip and is far more a reflection of how full of ourselves we can get than about anything beyond our scope.

Oh, and how pray tell can the Bible be the literal word of God when there are so many variations?  Will the real freakin Bible please stand up.

The various versions of the Bible are 99.5% the same. Your petty self is getting the better of you.

Christianity is the only religion where God Himself enters His creation to save us from our sins. And His Spirit indwells those who new creations of God. Then Jesus will return to reign on earth for 1000 years. After that is the New City in the New Earth in eternity future where God and Lamb are the center of the New City.

It doesn’t get more personal than that.

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Posted: 07 February 2011 11:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]
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noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 10:30 AM
Bees Mom - 07 February 2011 10:27 AM

Of all the ridiculous Christian beliefs, the idea of hell is the one I consider the most ridiculous. There is no hell, that’s a complete myth made up to torture children into believing. Unfortunately, you’ll never know, because when you’re dead, you’ll just be dead.

If there is no hell then you don’t have free will to be eternally separated from God, but you are something closer to a robot. God is not the god of robots, but the God of sovereign free willed beings.

Since Jesus was resurrected and He said we would be resurrected then we will. God created the soul permanently existing.

And it would be evil of God to give us God-consciousness in our spirit, awareness of Him, only to let us be annihilated. That would be like having a child but telling them at the age of 12 they will need to be put to sleep permamently. What love is that?

The first two souls that had God-consciousness were Adam and Eve about 6000 years ago, the line through whom Jesus would be born.

There is nothing for you to be upset about. It’s true. Praise the Lord!

I’m not upset. There is no hell, there is no heaven, there is no soul. I am perfectly fine with all of that. There were no Adam and Eve, creation myths are a dime a dozen, and the Christian one has no more truth than any of the others.

I most certainly do not praise the lord.

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