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The NEW 4 Step Proof for God
Posted: 07 February 2011 02:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]
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noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 01:20 PM

Paul always agreed with Jesus..

No…please read your bible. This has been a fundemental thing from the emergence of Christianty. You are clearly confused if you think they agree.

noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 01:20 PM

Jesus said made Himself equal with God, forgiving sins and accepting Thomas calling Him God.

See the problem is you’re reading the English translation.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (John 20:28)

The Gospel of John the passge you are eluding to was written in Greek. The words used in the passage are Kyrios and Theos…

“Kyrios” is a title given to people by their servants as a sign of respect.
“Theos” means gods representative, vice regent.

So in the Greek text the passage would say;

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Kyrios and my Theos.

You have to read the original text as it is the only way to fully understand and comprehend what is being said.

noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 01:20 PM

The Trinity is not 1+1+1=3 but 1/3+1/3+1/3=1.

Oh dear…

Jesus recieved broiled fish and a piece of honey comb…why? God is self-sufficient why would he need to ask for food? Are we to also to assume god also defecates? If Jesus was god why does the bible give him human traits? Why would god need to come down to his own creation to teach us a lesson but limit himself in all areas if he is all powerful? Why would he allow himself to be crucified and tortured by his creation?

If you can give me the passage where Jesus says “I am god, worship me” I will convert right here right now to Christianity.

Gospel of John chapter 14, verse 28: “for the father is greater than I”
Gospel of John John 10:29: “My father, who has given them to me, is greater than all”
Gospel of Matthew 12:28: “It is by the spirit of god I cast out demons”
Gospel of Luke 11:20 “I drive out demons by the finger of god”
Gospel of John 5:30 “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me”

Please explain why Jesus is having to refer to someone greater than he if he is equal to god?

noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 01:20 PM

The Trinity is in every book of the NT.

Ofcourse it is…who says otherwise? I’m talking about the Old Testament where the trinity or any other relations are non-existent. There is not a single statement in the OT of the trinity…not one.

noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 01:20 PM

Paul came in contact with Jesus on the road to Damascus.

The Son of Sam also came into contact with god apparently through the physical form of a dog talking to him. There are many men who have said they have talked to god…should we believe them?

btw there are passages in the bible which warn against someone like Paul…but I’m guessing your ignoring it to make your faith more suitable without having to question clear differences in the application of faith by Jesus and Paul. The latter who has borrowed heavily from the pagans…

noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 01:20 PM

Paul was one of the most if not the most spiritual man who ever lived. He almost died 7 times before his final martyrdom.

I’m not a Paulian nor do I think you should be one if you put Jesus before Paul…I put Jesus before Paul. Jesus said there is one god…Paul says there are 3. Jesus said he “casts out demons with the finger of “god”...Paul and others say Jesus himself did cast out demons…

[ Edited: 07 February 2011 02:24 PM by Affluenza ]
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Posted: 07 February 2011 02:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]
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Rocinante - 07 February 2011 01:55 PM
noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 03:01 AM

Revelation 7:1
And after these things I saw four angels standing on four corners of the Earth


A compass? North, east, south and west… wink

The rest of your points atleast in biblical passages can be made to ring true in the context of an ever expanding universe but the earth doesn’t move in the ever expanding universe…it remains in it’s system.

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Posted: 07 February 2011 03:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]
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The really fascinating aspect of this discussion is as a beautiful illustration that those whose beliefs are supported by the least evidence are invariably those who shout the loudest. Nose Elf, I hate to tell you this, but - your bible is a book of fairy tales. You can quote bible passages at us, day after day, week after week until your face turns purple and you get a coronary infarction, but it’s all pointless. We don’t believe you, we never will believe you, and you can’t scare us with threats of Hell because we know the only places where Hell actually exists are in sick minds such as yours (except, of course, for that world famous railway station, just east of Trondheim in Norway). You’re wasting your time.

Your bible isn’t the word of god, it’s the word of men - and men with a political agenda at that. The Old Testament is mostly an attempt to justify the Isrealites’ invasion of Canaan and the slaughter and enslavement of its people. See Deuteronomy, ch.20, where your fictitious god orders the Isrealites to commit what we today would call genocide. The “message” of the Old Testament, if it can be said to have a message, is basically “Yeah, we murdered all those people and stole all their land and property, but it’s OK because god told us to do it - see? - and we’re god’s chosen people.”

And the “message” of the New Testament is of the same order; pure politics; “Believe what we tell you to believe, don’t ask questions, don’t try to think for yourselves, obey those whom it has pleased god to place in authority over you no matter how cruel and vindictive they are, and god will reward you - in heaven - AFTER you die.” That strikes me as being exactly the same kind of offer that you get in the mail occasionally - you know the sort of thing - “CONGRATULATIONS! YOU have WON a Caribbean cruise, a brand new Lincoln Town Car and $250,000, and all you have to do to claim your prize is to send $400, your bank account details and your PIN number to Box666, Deception, Missouri….” It would be laughable if so many grown adults didn’t unthinkingly believe in it.

Nose Elf, you’d be much better advised to go and preach your nonsense on a street corner in some inner city skid row area, where the people you’ll meet have fried their brains with booze, drugs and AIDS. Those are the only people who’re dumb enough to believe you. You’ll get LOTS more converts that way.

TSF

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Posted: 07 February 2011 04:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 94 ]
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noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 11:49 AM
Bees Mom - 07 February 2011 11:47 AM
noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 11:44 AM
Bees Mom - 07 February 2011 11:42 AM

I suppose you have stats to back that up?

Of course.

None of these are actually Christians for would Jesus do that?

What you will find though is that atheists in prison is a far greater proportion than atheists in the general public. About 10% of the public are atheist, but 20% of inmates are atheist, showing you that atheists are outdoing themselves when it comes to rape, theft and murder.


Yeah, now I know you’re just trolling. Proof of your claims, c’mon now.

I knew you were trolling long before.

Hahahaha, unlike you, I have actually attempted to make associations on this forum with likeminded individuals, that actually requires a give and take of dialogue. What I am NOT doing is showing up on xtrian forums, with arguments as pointless as yours have been. Although my atheist arguments would still be correct, that would still be trolling. Everyone here has heard your arguments before, and dismissed them. If you wish to engage in some genuine, non-trolling, and original discussion, that would be met with a friendlier reaction.

[ Edited: 07 February 2011 04:45 PM by Bees Mom ]
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Posted: 07 February 2011 04:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 95 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 07 February 2011 01:22 PM
Affluenza - 07 February 2011 12:30 PM

The trinty makes no sense. 1+1+1=1…right? Do you know why it makes no sense?

Hey, what about 3in1 Oil?  cool smirk

At least THAT serves a function. smile

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Posted: 07 February 2011 04:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 96 ]
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Affluenza - 07 February 2011 02:22 PM

The Gospel of John the passge you are eluding to was written in Greek. The words used in the passage are Kyrios and Theos…

“Kyrios” is a title given to people by their servants as a sign of respect.
“Theos” means gods representative, vice regent.

So in the Greek text the passage would say;

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Kyrios and my Theos.

You have to read the original text as it is the only way to fully understand and comprehend what is being said.

Oh dear…

Jesus recieved broiled fish and a piece of honey comb…why? God is self-sufficient why would he need to ask for food? Are we to also to assume god also defecates? If Jesus was god why does the bible give him human traits? Why would god need to come down to his own creation to teach us a lesson but limit himself in all areas if he is all powerful? Why would he allow himself to be crucified and tortured by his creation?

If you can give me the passage where Jesus says “I am god, worship me” I will convert right here right now to Christianity.

Gospel of John chapter 14, verse 28: “for the father is greater than I”
Gospel of John John 10:29: “My father, who has given them to me, is greater than all”
Gospel of Matthew 12:28: “It is by the spirit of god I cast out demons”
Gospel of Luke 11:20 “I drive out demons by the finger of god”
Gospel of John 5:30 “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me”

Please explain why Jesus is having to refer to someone greater than he if he is equal to god?

I appreciate the detailing of your response, Affluenza. Let us hope it is contagious. smile

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“You can tell me that it’s gospel but I know that it’s only church.”

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“I take a simple view of life. It is keep your eyes open and get on with it.”

Laurence Sterne

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Posted: 07 February 2011 04:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 97 ]
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Moved to Proof of God thread.

[ Edited: 07 February 2011 04:55 PM by garythehuman ]
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All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

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Posted: 07 February 2011 04:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 98 ]
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noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 02:09 PM

What were there names? I can name the names of the Apostles who saw Jesus alive from the dead from their testimonies in the Bible and others too like James, Paul and Stephen who were all martyred for their claim as well.

And it was not just one time but there were 12 different group settings seeing Jesus alive from the dead.

Jesus appeared 12 times to different group sizes ranging from just one person to 500 people.

That’s it?  That’s all you got?  Only one resurrection and 12 lousy times and just a few hundred people at the max?!  And no dates!!!  Written eyewitness account gives nearly 40 times that Jim Jones raised dead people!  And Jim Jones had anywhere from 3,000 to 5,000 people who would flock to see him and his miracles! 

You want names!  Here are some names in regards to Jim Jones raising the dead and other miracles [Emphasis added in all cases.]:

A man they call The Prophet is attracting extraordinary crowds from extraordinary distances to his People’s Temple Christian (Disciples) Church in this Mendocino County hamlet.

His followers say he can raise the dead.

—Rev. Lester Kinsolving, Religion Writer Page 1 Sunday, September 17, 1972 edition of the San Francisco Examiner

“I know that Pastor Jim Jones is God Almighty himself!” cried one of the more than 1000 people who overflowed the auditorium of Benjamin Franklin Junior High School on Geary Boulevard yesterday morning and Saturday night.

—Rev. Lester Kinsolving, Religion Writer Monday, September 18, 1972 edition of the San Francisco Examiner

 

People’s Temple’s bulletin, distributed at the 11 am service in L.A. on Sun. Sept. 10, 1972:

“Pastor Jones walked to the dead man and commanded ‘Arise!’ Instantly the man was resurrected before thousands there.”

 

“Jim [Jones] has been the means by which more than 40 persons have literally been brought back from the dead this year. When I first came into the church, I was the conventional skeptic about such things. But I must be honest:

“I have seen Jim revive people stiff as a board, tongues hanging out, eyes set, skin graying, and all vital signs absent. Don’t ask me how it happens. It just does.

“Jim will go up to such a person and say something like, ‘I love you’ or ‘I need you’ and immediately the vital signs reappear

—Tim Stoen, Graduate of Wheaton College, Graduate of Stanford University Law School and Former Assistant Prosecuting attorney of Mendocino County in a letter dated Sept. 12, 1972 (I’d like to see you get more specific than that on any of your sources!) grin

 

You want more names?

Eva Pugh witnessed Jim Jones duplicate Jesus’ feat of multiplying food for the masses.  Jones said, “Even though there isn’t enough food to feed this multitude, I am blessing the food that we have and multiplying it just as Jesus did in biblical times.”  Eva Pugh personally carried the chicken that she witnessed Jim Jones miraculously multiply.

Others who witnessed many of Jones’ miracles, including raising the dead: 

Philip Addison
Maria Katsaris
Debbie Harpe
Leslie Wilson

You want more names?  I will literally run out of room on this posting if I list all of them.  So here are just the A’s and only a small fraction of the B’s who witnessed Jim Jones’ miracles.  Remember many of these people were so convinced of Jim Jones and his miracles that many of them gave up their lives just like you claim followers of Jesus did! 

ADDISON, Stephen Michae

ALBUDY, Ida Marie

ALEXANDER, Lillian Boyd

Amos, Christa

Amos, Liane

AMOS, Linda Sharon

AMOS, Martin Laurence

AMOS, Wayborn Christa

ANDERSON, Jerome Dwayne

ANDERSON, Marcus Anthony

ANDERSON, Marice St. Martin

ANDERSON, Orelia

Anderson, Richardell Smith

ANDERSON, Samuel Moses

ANDERSON, Shantrell Akpon

ANDERSON, Tommy Lee

Armstrong, Oreen

ARNOLD, Luberta

Arterberry, Clarence

ARTERBERRY, Linda Theresa

ARTERBERRY, Ricardo David

ARTERBERRY, Traytease Lanette

ATKINS, Lydia

ATKINS, Ruth


BACKMON, Viola Elaine

BACON, Monique

BAILEY, Geraldine Harriet

BAILEY, Mary Jane

BAISY, James Samuel, Jr.

Baisy, Jerry

BAISY, Jon Deshi

BAISY, Kecia

BAISY, Shirley Mae

BAISY, Siburi Jamal

BAISY, Trinidette

BAISY, Wanda

BAKER, Eric Tyrone

BAKER, Jair Alexander

BAKER, Shawn Valgen

BAKER, Tarik Earl

BALDWIN, Mary B.

Bargeman, Dorothy Williams

BARGEMAN, Rory LaVate

BARGEMAN, Terence

BARRETT, Becky Ann 3

BARRETT, Ben Franklyn

BARRETT, Cathy

BARRON, Jack Darlington

BATES, Christine Ella Mae

Face the facts.  There are more eyewitnesses of Jim Jones performing miracles and raising the dead than of Jesus.  And you claim Jesus only got resurrected one lousy time.  Yet modern, written, firsthand, eyewitness testimony states Jim Jones performed this same stunt miracle nearly 40 times!  My sources are more accurate, are clearly and undeniably first hand accounts, have dates, include some people still alive as of this posting and other points going for them that yours do not.  If you accept the Jesus resurrection fable as real, you must also accept the nearly 40 resurrections attributed to Jim Jones.  And remember, more people died for Jim Jones than all the apostles combined!  So they clearly believed!  No one would die for a lie!  Isn’t that part of the gist of your silly claim?

[ Edited: 07 February 2011 05:02 PM by Rocinante ]
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Posted: 07 February 2011 05:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 99 ]
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Oh, and since you didn’t mention anything about the constant unmoving, flat Earth references in the Bible, I will take your silence as a concession on your part that the Bronze Age authors of the Bible did get basic astronomy and geography wrong.  I wonder what else they got wrong? grin

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There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.

—James Madison

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Posted: 07 February 2011 05:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 100 ]
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noselfwilling - 06 February 2011 04:21 AM

Christians win. It’s awesome!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-LbvFckptY

psik

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Posted: 07 February 2011 06:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 101 ]
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noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 08:11 AM
Mriana - 07 February 2011 05:26 AM

There was no eyewitness testimony.  None of the writers of the Bible were eyewitnesses and Paul even says he wasn’t an eyewitness, even scholars and theologians say this.  If I didn’t have to get ready for work, I’d look up chapter and verse for you where Paul says this.  I hate to tell you this, but the Bible isn’t the inerrant word of God.  It is the very errant word of humans.

Paul said he was an eyewitness. Read 1 Cor. 15. He also said he spent 15 days with Peter who was an eyewitness, and with James and John who were eyewitnesses. All the original Apostles were eyewitnesses. This is something scholars and theologians are unanimous about that they truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. I hate to tell you this for your sake that the Bible is the inerrant word of God because that means you are going to Hell.

Paul was not an eyewitness.  None of them were.  This is not something that scholars and theologians are unanimous about either.  I don’t know where you get your info, but it’s not in the Bile.  1 Cor 15 does not say he was an eyewitness and even so, theologians and scholars state that Paul did not write at least 6 our the 13 books attributed to Paul.  Oh and thanks for condemning, but I’ve already been through hell right here on earth, which people create.  Sorry you believe the fairy tale is real, but it’s not and there is no God, never was a JC as portrayed in the Bile, and the H.S. is Casper.  There you go and I think we have one delusion… er doozy of troll with this one.

[ Edited: 07 February 2011 06:42 PM by Mriana ]
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“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 07 February 2011 06:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 102 ]
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Bees Mom - 07 February 2011 10:27 AM
noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 08:11 AM
Mriana - 07 February 2011 05:26 AM

There was no eyewitness testimony.  None of the writers of the Bible were eyewitnesses and Paul even says he wasn’t an eyewitness, even scholars and theologians say this.  If I didn’t have to get ready for work, I’d look up chapter and verse for you where Paul says this.  I hate to tell you this, but the Bible isn’t the inerrant word of God.  It is the very errant word of humans.

Paul said he was an eyewitness. Read 1 Cor. 15. He also said he spent 15 days with Peter who was an eyewitness, and with James and John who were eyewitnesses. All the original Apostles were eyewitnesses. This is something scholars and theologians are unanimous about that they truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. I hate to tell you this for your sake that the Bible is the inerrant word of God because that means you are going to Hell.


Of all the ridiculous Christian beliefs, the idea of hell is the one I consider the most ridiculous. There is no hell, that’s a complete myth made up to torture children into believing. Unfortunately, you’ll never know, because when you’re dead, you’ll just be dead.

I agree and it was created by humans, a human concept, in which to control the masses through fear.  Sadly, some people still buy into it today.

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“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 07 February 2011 06:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 103 ]
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noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 11:32 AM
Occam. - 07 February 2011 11:28 AM

I had not until now realized the extent to which religious fundamentalism is related to other mental illnesses.

Occam

Atheist have the highest rate of not only suicide, rape and murder, but they also have the highest amount most diseases and illness, additctions and other sicknesses. Most people in insane asylums are atheists.

No actually it is the other way around.  Most are not atheist.  The same population within society is equivalently in mental hospitals and prisons.

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“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

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Posted: 07 February 2011 09:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 104 ]
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noselfwilling - 07 February 2011 03:01 AM

In the Bible they believed the earth was round as there was one account of a ship merchant noticing the curvature of the sea off into the distance. Curvature means it is round.

You know what?  After thinking about it I’m calling Poe’s Law on this one.  Obviously that is not in the Bible.  But it is in Cosmos.  Chapter 7, “The Backbone of Night”, page 149.  I also think Sagan mentioned it in one of the TV episodes.  No self respecting fundamentalist Christian would be familiar with something like this from Carl Sagan.  Sagan only hypothesizes about Pythagoras possibly figuring out the Earth was round by a ship’s mast (personally I’m skeptical anyone could see a ship’s mast last due to the entire ship just appearing smaller before any significant curvature would cause the ship to be obscured before the mast) .  Anyway, combined with all the other wacky claims like no Christians in mental hospitals and atheists having more diseases, etc., it’s just too over the top.  Poe. 

Perhaps Noselfwilling is sharpening his skills in debating fundamentalists by stepping into their shoes.  Perhaps something else.  But NSW’s knowledge (or perhaps hint?) of Carl Sagan gave it away for me.  Thanks for the fun!  grin

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Posted: 07 February 2011 09:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 105 ]
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noselfwilling - 06 February 2011 08:30 PM

Almost all scholars who do their thesis or peer review journal work on the resurrection of Jesus all concede that the original apostles truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

Since nobody in the past two thousand years has been able to come up with a naturalistic explanation for the original of the disciples’ beliefs, we know with 100% certainty Jesus raised Himself from the dead proving He is God, that therefore, salvation is only through Him, and there is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved.

This is relatively easy to figure out since it is not rocket science or string theory, so if there is a naturalistic explanation you would have been able to come up with one that fits the data. Since you can’t you prove Jesus is God and since you don’t want to be forgiven by God for you sins, then you will go to Hell.

If you don’t want it, you don’t have to have it. Free will is not free if you don’t have the choice to be eternally separted from God in Hell for all eternity.

Again, noselfwilling, I point you to the historical Jesus scholar, Geza Vermes, who notes in several public volumes and scores of refereed papers that there is little to no historical basis for the claim that Jesus was resurrected.

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