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Physics & Skyscrapers
Posted: 16 February 2012 02:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 451 ]
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psikeyhackr - 16 February 2012 08:29 AM
Write4U - 15 February 2012 07:48 PM

Correction re the duration of the collapse of the towers.  I cited 12 and 9 seconds, it actually took much longer which further supports a slow but accelerating weakening and eventual total disintegration of the structures.

From wiki,

The South Tower collapsed at 9:59 a.m., less than an hour after being hit by the hijacked airliner, and at 10:28 a.m. the North Tower collapsed.

Are you trying to imply that collapse time should be counted form the time of the airliner impacts?

Nobody does that.

The longest collapse times are 25 seconds and that is based on the remains of the core still standing which is called “The Spire”.

Oh sure muddy the waters and cause confusion with rhetorical bullsh!t.  A very Chris Mohr tactic.  LOL

Dr. Sunder of the NIST said 11 seconds for the north tower, so he was ignoring The Spire collapse time.  In order to see The Spire the perimeter and the floors and most of the core was already down.

psik

Of course you begin the count from the original impact. A large object smashing into a large object has massive intial consequences to the structural integrity of both objects. The plane itself collapsed on impact no? The tower needs not come down immediately, in fact that would be unlikely, but even a few loosened joints might become a critical factor at a later stage.

The point I was trying to make that it would have to take time for metals to soften from the heat generated by the explosion and fires, not just from the jet fuel but also wooden wall supports and furniture. The fact that the towers did NOT immediately collapse supports the notion that heat, not impact was the primary cause for the eventual collapse.

Even a smitty has to spend time to heat the metal before it becomes malleable, but once it has softened one can shape a horseshoe with a 5lb hammer. IMO the steel in the upper parts of the towers lost their structural integrity due to heat, which caused a gradual collapse of the upper floors, and started the process of accumulations of weight, momentum, inward and outward pressures and splitting in an ever accelerating rate. Once sufficient momentum was achieved the process became unstoppable and the collapse became general and in the final seconds it became total.

But the fact that it did take time for this process to start accelerating supports the notion that heat was the primary cause for the collapse of the steel structural supports in the upper fifteen floors, IMO.

I did a 2 year stint as bookkeeper in a machine shop and i was constantly surprised how easy it is to work with steel, with heat, proper leverage and relatively small tools. Granted, I never saw them work with beams the size of the towers, but then never have I seen the amount of stresses from the size, weight and height of those towers. This was an unprecedented event.

I’m from Holland and there is this story of the boy with his finger in the dike, preventing the flooding of half the country…... cheese

[ Edited: 16 February 2012 02:57 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 16 February 2012 04:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 452 ]
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This was an unprecedented event.

All the more reason to treat it as unique and learn as much as possible from what was witnessed that day.

Not in the manner of the sham “investigation(s)” that pretend to answer those questions they deem “worth answering.”

“That’s like asking the square root of a million. No one will ever know.” ~ Nelson Muntz, The Simpsons

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Posted: 16 February 2012 05:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 453 ]
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LanceThruster - 16 February 2012 02:29 PM

I mean, for crying out loud…why look at actual evidence when you can just build computer models?

My bad…forget to add the [sarcasm on] [sarcasm off] brackets (because I had no freakin’ idea I might actually need them).

Are you some sort of computer generated answer-bot incapable of detecting sarcasm?

ERROR (2137): unknown word, “sarcasm”

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Posted: 16 February 2012 05:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 454 ]
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LanceThruster - 16 February 2012 04:27 PM

This was an unprecedented event.

All the more reason to treat it as unique and learn as much as possible from what was witnessed that day.

Not in the manner of the sham “investigation(s)” that pretend to answer those questions they deem “worth answering.”

“That’s like asking the square root of a million. No one will ever know.” ~ Nelson Muntz, The Simpsons

I agree, but even if we learned about the actual way the structires collapsed from this specific event, how are you going to prepare for another “unprecedented” event?. Witness Mt St Helens eruption, blowing half a mountain into dust. You just cannot prepare for every eventuality.

IMO any (if there was) “cover-up” was due to the administration potential liability from “dereliction of duty” to protect the nation from such attacks. But that is another story and has little to do with the physics of the actual event.

[ Edited: 16 February 2012 05:55 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 16 February 2012 06:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 455 ]
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Write4U - 16 February 2012 02:47 PM

Of course you begin the count from the original impact. A large object smashing into a large object has massive intial consequences to the structural integrity of both objects. The plane itself collapsed on impact no? The tower needs not come down immediately, in fact that would be unlikely, but even a few loosened joints might become a critical factor at a later stage.

The point I was trying to make that it would have to take time for metals to soften from the heat generated by the explosion and fires, not just from the jet fuel but also wooden wall supports and furniture. The fact that the towers did NOT immediately collapse supports the notion that heat, not impact was the primary cause for the eventual collapse.

You are the first and ONLY person to use the impacts as the start of any collapse time.

The first fragments of the outer walls of the collapsed North Tower struck the ground 11 seconds after the collapse started, and parts of the South Tower after 9 seconds. The lower portions of both buildings’ cores (60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) remained standing for up to 25 seconds after the start of the initial collapse before they too collapsed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center

There were no fires to weaken the steel below the 90th floor of the north tower so there was plenty of steel to absorb heat via conduction.  So talking about heating steel without knowing the steel distribution is absurd.

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/how-hot.htm

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Posted: 16 February 2012 06:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 456 ]
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Still waiting for a motive.

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Posted: 16 February 2012 07:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 457 ]
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psikeyhackr - 16 February 2012 06:42 PM
Write4U - 16 February 2012 02:47 PM

Of course you begin the count from the original impact. A large object smashing into a large object has massive intial consequences to the structural integrity of both objects. The plane itself collapsed on impact no? The tower needs not come down immediately, in fact that would be unlikely, but even a few loosened joints might become a critical factor at a later stage.

The point I was trying to make that it would have to take time for metals to soften from the heat generated by the explosion and fires, not just from the jet fuel but also wooden wall supports and furniture. The fact that the towers did NOT immediately collapse supports the notion that heat, not impact was the primary cause for the eventual collapse.

You are the first and ONLY person to use the impacts as the start of any collapse time.

The first fragments of the outer walls of the collapsed North Tower struck the ground 11 seconds after the collapse started, and parts of the South Tower after 9 seconds. The lower portions of both buildings’ cores (60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) remained standing for up to 25 seconds after the start of the initial collapse before they too collapsed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center

There were no fires to weaken the steel below the 90th floor of the north tower so there was plenty of steel to absorb heat via conduction.  So talking about heating steel without knowing the steel distribution is absurd.

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/how-hot.htm

psik

Maybe that is where the problem lies, no one has considered the sequential accumulative structural damage from the moment of impact, explosion and subsequent fires. kudos to me…. cheese

Were those lower levels designed to withstand a random weight distribution of the upper 15 collapsing on top of them with increasing momentum?

c’mon psik, a sequence of cause and effect starts with initial causality. Is that not logical?

[ Edited: 16 February 2012 07:27 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 16 February 2012 07:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 458 ]
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How can anyone have seperated this into two or three unrelated events? Now that sounds to me like complete denial of physics.

I can stack 50 tons of steel tubes and t-bars on top of a single tube or t-bar with “good weight” distribution and nothing happens. 
I can bend or twist orr collapse fifty tons of steel tubes and t-bars (one by one) practically by hand if they are sufficiently heated.
I can also use a fifty ton press to achieve the bending, twisting or collapsing a single unheated tube or t-bar with “uneven” weight distribution.

After the collapse of the upper levels from heat failure, initial weight distribution was impaired, this is in effect is what happened, sequentially. These were stages of collapse, but by no means unrelated to the intial impact.

[ Edited: 16 February 2012 08:47 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 16 February 2012 11:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 459 ]
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LanceThruster - 16 February 2012 04:27 PM

All the more reason to treat it as unique and learn as much as possible from what was witnessed that day.

 

The only thing to learn is how best to respond.

we’re not going to start building sky scrapers to withstand being crashed into by jumbo jets or anything.

Stephen

[ Edited: 16 February 2012 11:29 PM by StephenLawrence ]
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Posted: 17 February 2012 08:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 460 ]
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sorry haven’t been able to {well ok haven’t cared to} wade through some of those long posts…

But could someone explain what the timing of the collapse has to do with things.

Does it imply God’s intervention, by altering gravitational forces, or what?
oh oh

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Posted: 17 February 2012 09:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 461 ]
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Write4U - 16 February 2012 07:41 PM

How can anyone have seperated this into two or three unrelated events? Now that sounds to me like complete denial of physics.

I can stack 50 tons of steel tubes and t-bars on top of a single tube or t-bar with “good weight” distribution and nothing happens. 

Let’s see the video.  LOL

So you think you can PROVE something with empty claims?

I don’t know what 3 things you are talking about.  Like I said, you are the ONLY PERSON I have encountered in years trying to count the collapse from the plane impact.  So you figure out how CORRECT that makes you appear.

psik

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Posted: 17 February 2012 09:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 462 ]
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There is a whole matrix of information pointing to U.S. Government involvement in the planning and execution of September 11th. From the ominous writings of the Project for a New American Century (PNAC), to the scores of so-called ‘intelligence breakdowns’, to the lack of military response and the comprehensive dismissal of standard operating procedures in reaction to a declared emergency, to the bizarre collapse of WTC 7, to the freefall speed and explosive collapse of the Towers, to the miraculous aeronautical maneuvering of the jets, to Dick Cheney’s suspicious behavior in the underground bunker, and on and on. The incriminating data is there, and has been presented at length in this paper. The only thing keeping the truth about 9/11 from emerging is our collective desire to continue to spin the fairy tale we have been fed.

We have an emotional investment in what it means to be American. We have an emotional investment in trusting and believing in the goodness of our ‘leaders’. We have an emotional investment in the correctness of our initial reaction to the events of 9/11, and in the goodness of the justice we pursued thereafter. We have an emotional investment in our belief about the veracity and democratic function of the press. To admit and accept the truth that is illuminated by the actual hard facts and data of 9/11 would unravel the threads of a narrative we have used over the past 5 years to literally define ourselves. To admit to the hard truth about 9/11 would be a literal death of a part of us.

But surely, in upholding this collective myth of 9/11, part of us is dying anyway. A much more central, vital part. All of us know that when we refuse to look at ourselves, and the world, honestly, we suffer. We are forced to live disconnected, unhappy, and wholly stressful lives. For whatever false images and versions of reality we have created will necessarily, and continuously, run up against the immovable certainty of the truth. In response, we will be forced to constantly manipulate our thoughts and actions, rearrange facts, polish our blinders, stick fingers in our ears, and engage in a perpetual state of denial to avoid that truth, struggling mightily to reestablish the more comforting feeling of our chosen myth. It is a full-time commitment, burden, and unequivocal waste of energy that will lead to a life of perpetual disconnect.

[snip]

One of the tenets and ideals upon which this country was founded, and still resides, is accountability. Taking responsibility for our own actions, and rendering ourselves accountable for their consequences. In fact, the Republican Party, to which the Bush/Cheney Administration act as leaders, has made this their moral mantra over the past ten years. And indeed, accountability and responsibility are wise ideals to live by. And if 9/11 is, as advertised, the seminal event shaping our generation, then nowhere is it more important to uphold and honor our stated and chosen ideals than in honestly investigating and uncovering the actual truth about that event. And holding the real perpetrators accountable. That those perpetrators appear to come from within the ranks of our own family is a truth that, though perhaps initially harsh, must be dealt with and reconciled. If not, we will live lives without depth, lives wholly disconnected from reality, lives filled with deception and further suffering.

I have heard from people who have at least considered the evidence of 9/11 still defend the need to uphold the official story by arguing that to reveal the truth would cause unpredictable chaos and social upheaval. Is there not chaos and upheaval now? Are there not thousands of Americans dead, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghanis dead? Has not Iraq been thrown into all out civil war? Has not the ‘war on terror’ served only to escalate the number of terrorists worldwide, giving more credence than ever to terrorist leaders’ claims of an infidel western power bent on global domination? Was this not Bush and Cheney’s plan from the beginning, to create a new sinister enemy in order to legitimize their pre-existing plans to “reorganize America’s defenses” and reinforce the U.S. economic/oil hegemony? Has not this global corporate paradigm to which we are so attached served only to push the planet to the brink of catastrophic climate changes that threaten the very survival of our species? Is change really so unbearable?

Perhaps change is, initially, painful. Dealing and reconciling with the truth about 9/11 is a big step that requires letting go of certain vines of reality we have depended upon for so long. But as any recovering addict or abuse victim will testify, this reconciliation is the only way to end the perpetual struggle we have locked ourselves into. Because with the truth, there is nothing left to defend. There is no sinking ship to save. There are no illusions that have to be rationalized with fancy language or media spin or public relations campaigns. There is only the truth of what is real. As is. And we can get on with living our lives.

The axiom ‘Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely’ is a well-known and widely believed moral truism. The current U.S. government enjoys more absolute power than the world of human history has ever known. So what is it, what deeply held conviction, assumed self-evident truth, and collectively held myth keeps us from considering and suspecting that this U.S. government, with its unprecedented power and influence, is deeply and profoundly corrupt?

And finally, to answer the most common and most important question I am consistently asked: So what? Why is it so important that the truth of 9/11 come out. My simple answer is that a significant crime has been committed, and the criminals who so comprehensively benefited from the crime are still running around, setting agendas and steering the course of not only our country, but the future of our shared planet as well. And these people should be sitting in prison, not in the Oval Office and high-rise executive suites. But perhaps more importantly, our continuing choice to remain ignorant about the reality of 9/11 is indicative of a more general apathy and collective ambivalence toward an accelerating global chaos that is quickly, and literally, making our shared planet inhospitable for the coming generations. To whom I believe we have a shared responsibility to grow up and behave like the adults we have been entrusted to be.

The authors of 9/11 have worked tirelessly to franchise the impact and consequence of that fateful morning. A staggering amount of emotional weight has been bestowed upon September 11th. To even mention the word, to even hint that a sentence is about to reference the phrase 9/11, is to elicit an involuntary emotional response of shock and awe from the listener. And while this build-up and extraordinary emotional momentum generated around 9/11 is something the authors are undoubtedly proud of, something they have used for the past five years to shape and cajole and manipulate public will and opinion, there also lie the seeds of a great irony within the surging force of that momentum. Because built in to the force of that heavy tide lie not only the seeds for expanding the plotters’ demented power and influence, but also the seeds of their potential downfall and demise as well. For if we the people can unshackle the fetters we have agreed to carry, if we can turn ourselves into social alchemists and harness the emotionality and momentum 9/11 already carries, redirect its force to wash back over its contriving authors, then therein lies a great potential to generate the much needed, lasting change in the currently destructive course of our collective heading. The proof that the threads of the 9/11 web, in which we find ourselves so entangled, were spun by individuals holding prominent positions within the ranks of our own governmental ‘leadership’ is undeniable. Those who wove those threads will not untangle the knots. This task is left to us.

From: http://www.911hardfacts.com/report_22.htm

Read the whole thing including the author’s (anon) bio. He makes more sense with his evaluation and approach than *any* of the deniers I’ve read in here (and sadly in that regard, CFI in general).

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Posted: 17 February 2012 09:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 463 ]
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LOL

Fact free, hyperbolic innuendo. Great way to manufacture a nutty conspiracy theory.

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Posted: 17 February 2012 09:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 464 ]
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domokato - 16 February 2012 06:49 PM

Still waiting for a motive.

[making airplane engine noises while directing spoon towards domokato’s mouth] Here comes the motive delivery!!....


http://www.911hardfacts.com/report_04.htm

In the summer of 2000, the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), a neo-conservative think tank riddled with soon to be Bush administration officials and advisors, issued a document calling for the radical restructuring of U.S. government and military policies. It advocated the massive expansion of defense spending, the re-invasion of Iraq, the military and economic securing of Afghanistan and Central Asia, increased centralized power and funds for the CIA, FBI, and NSA, among a slew of other policies that would, in the near future, be enacted upon their ascension to power. In the same document, they cite a potential problem with their plan. Referring to the goals of transforming the U.S. and global power structure, the paper states that because of the American Public’s slant toward ideas of democracy and freedom, “this process of transformation is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor.” (ibid.)

PNAC members, and signees to its policy documents, include: Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wofowitz, Jeb Bush, Richard Perle, John Bolton, Scooter Libby, Elliot Abrams, Richard Armitage, William Bennet, William Kristol, and Zalmy Khalilzad - men with their hands deep in the private defense, oil, and multi-national corporate industries poised to make vast sums of money and secure huge tracts of power and influence if PNAC policy evolved into U.S. Government policy. Nine months after they rose to power, and assumed central positions of leadership up and down the spectrum of military, civilian, domestic, and international agencies, they got their ‘New Pearl Harbor’. And PNAC policy essentially evolved into the Bush Administration’s official agenda. While this alarmingly convenient coincidence does not prove anything in and of itself, it does establish motive. And it certainly would raise the eyebrows of concern from any serious investigator looking into the facts of September 11.

Another alarming coincidence surrounding PNAC and September 11 has been revealed by attorney Stanley Hilton. Hilton, a graduate of Harvard Law School and former senior advisor and lead counsel for Bob Dole, attended the University of Chicago as an undergraduate in the 1960s. He studied under the infamous Leo Strauss, considered by many the father of neo-conservatism. Fellow students and acquaintances of Hilton’s at the time included Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle. In an interview with journalist Alex Jones, Hilton reports that, under the supervision of Strauss, his senior thesis detailed a plan to establish a Presidential Dictatorship using a fabricated ‘Pearl Harbor-like incident’ as justification. He further states that he, Perle, Wolfowitz, and other students of Strauss discussed an array of different plots and incidents ‘like September 11th’ and ‘flying airplanes into buildings way back in the 60s’.

In light of these revelations, it is no surprise that Hilton has been trying to blow the whistle on government involvement in 9/11 for years. He has also filed a lawsuit against the government on behalf of a number of victims’ families. As a result of his actions, Hilton has been harassed, threatened, burgled, and hounded repeatedly by the authorities.

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Posted: 17 February 2012 11:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 465 ]
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dougsmith - 17 February 2012 09:40 AM

LOL

Fact free, hyperbolic innuendo. Great way to manufacture a nutty conspiracy theory.

It was the conclusion to his lengthy fact-filled evaluation. The only thing that comes across as “nutty” is your clinging to the official narrative as if it had any veracity left.

You’re the Kent E. Hovind of 9/11 myth hugging (Dr. Dino).

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