1 of 3
1
What is truth?????????
Posted: 16 February 2011 01:31 PM   [ Ignore ]
Jr. Member
Rank
Total Posts:  1
Joined  2011-02-16

Hello all, I’m new here out of Dallas. A guy from the inner city, that spends a huge amount of time around christians. I’ve yet to be bold enough to let them know that what they believe in is meaningless. But anyway, why don’t we re-evaluate what we as a christian society constitute what is Right and Wrong. Now, hopefully we are of the same understanding that the basics should not be committed.The Basics are ~ Murder/Rape/Theft/Deception or in other words, something that violates the rights of others. Now that in itself can be another topic. But you get the idea. And because of that christian belief/principle/law is considered correct and everything contrary to that is wroing. When do we truly examine our individual rights. That “Whats good for me is always good for you” idealogy is what we’re living under. And I think real discussions need to made in that regard.

I don’t have that outlet to speak with someone on a critical level, since 99% of the people in my circle believe in christianity . And i don’t fit that typical profile of someone that thinks on a critical level at times. I’ve read a lot of posts talking about the religion and/or Christianity and we spend too much time and energy trying to outwit one another. And what I mean by that is Christians have their arguments against the claims of atheists and others. Instead trying to figure out the best way to get things done and live harmoniously.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 February 2011 08:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  15368
Joined  2006-02-14

Firstly welcome to the CFI Forum, imjustalkin. You’re right that a lot of folks around here like to argue back and forth about the merits or lack thereof of religious points of view. But if you find those kinds of discussions boring or not fruitful, please feel free to start your own.

Cheers,

 Signature 

Doug

-:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:- -:—:-

El sueño de la razón produce monstruos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 February 2011 10:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Moderator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  7571
Joined  2007-03-02

Welcome, imjustalkin.  Glad to have you here.  Please feel free to jump into the conversations or even take Doug’s suggestion and start your own.

 Signature 

Mriana
“Sometimes in order to see the light, you have to risk the dark.” ~ Iris Hineman (Lois Smith) The Minority Report

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 February 2011 06:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  137
Joined  2011-01-10

Welcome welcome!

quoting imjustalkin

I’ve yet to be bold enough to let them know that what they believe in is meaningless.

This is a tough situation - as much as I wish I could reason with people that believe in god - it is a seemingly impossible task. You can’t make someone see when they refuse to open their eyes - or step up and engage in rational conversation about their belief. The foundation of a strong debate is based on evidence, proven facts, studies, science, experiments etc…...........simply saying “well I just know god exists” cuts the debate before it even begins.

I agree with you in the sense that they are gullible, and quite silly really to refute solid facts in favor of blind faith. But on the other hand-  they think that we are ridiculous, saying that a life without god is a life without purpose or meaning - which I argue is not the case at all.

I personally know the satisfaction of embracing truth and knowledge - always open to the possibility of new truths presenting themselves.

Good luck, I hope you are able to find some good conversations here - I have - lots of great thoughts and perspective.

Cheers

 Signature 

“Gods don’t kill people. People with Gods kill people.”

– David Viaene

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 February 2011 10:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1397
Joined  2010-04-22
imjustalkin - 16 February 2011 01:31 PM

Hello all, I’m new here out of Dallas. A guy from the inner city, that spends a huge amount of time around christians. I’ve yet to be bold enough to let them know that what they believe in is meaningless. But anyway, why don’t we re-evaluate what we as a christian society constitute what is Right and Wrong.

Some good questions in here. Of course, society re-evalustes what is Right and Wrong all the time. In slow motion. It took 100 years between the end of the Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement, for example. And technically, what they believe isn’t completely meaningless. It is logically incoherent, but it does have social meaning.

 Signature 

“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 March 2011 10:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Jr. Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  21
Joined  2011-03-16

well when you ask yourself why religion exists youl find that it was created to give people hope and belief and a purpose for existing, god and religion is just an idea to give life meaning, you cannot simply label things with true or false there is only opinion, in this world, the only truth that does exist is the one you make for your self

 Signature 

for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction- sir isaac newton

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 March 2011 04:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5551
Joined  2010-06-16

Wow, where do I begin? Quoting leejc: 

well when you ask yourself why religion exists youl find that it was created to give people hope and belief and a purpose for existing,

I disagree strongly that that’s why it was created.  I believe it was created by those in power of the small tribes to a) explain the unknown, like lightning, death, etc., and b) to impose their will on the people by threatening them with punishment after death if they didn’t follow the word of whoever the power member “spoke for”.

god and religion is just an idea to give life meaning

Wrong.  There is no intrinsic meaning; we have to build the meanings of our own lives by our actions.

you cannot simply label things with true or false there is only opinion, in this world, the only truth that does exist is the one you make for your self

Wrong.  Reality exists.  Truth is our view of reality.  You have to live within the bounds of reality, no matter what “truth” you make for yourself.  You can say, “My truth is that I can fly”, but when you jump off the cliff, reality takes over, no matter what your opinion or your ‘truth” is.

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 March 2011 04:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  491
Joined  2008-02-25

I think leejc is confusing objective cognitive statements with subjective emotive statements.  If I believe “I can fly,” (with no machinery) that is objectively false.  If I say “This is a good chair.”  That is not an objective statement.  That is expressing my personal, subjective, emotive evaluation of that chair.  That is true for me, but for someone else they may say that the chair is awful because it screws up his/her back.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 16 March 2011 09:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1283
Joined  2011-03-12

I have to admit that I find the ever nebulous and ill defined appeal to “The Truth” to be by turns both puzzling and annoying, especially when coupled with the post modernist view that “All Is Relative.”

All Things are NOT relative.

Objective reality exists and it’s that pesky thing which persists in being there even though you refuse to believe in it.

If you don’t believe me, well, you don’t have to. You can put this to the test. Just jump off the top of the tallest skyscraper you can find without a parachute. Keep telling yourself that gravity doesn’t exist. Let me know what you find when you reach the sidewalk. I’ll listen to you if you feel up to having a conversation. tongue rolleye

 Signature 

Question authority and think for yourself. Big Brother does not know best and never has.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 March 2011 12:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  6042
Joined  2009-02-26
Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 16 March 2011 09:42 PM

I have to admit that I find the ever nebulous and ill defined appeal to “The Truth” to be by turns both puzzling and annoying, especially when coupled with the post modernist view that “All Is Relative.”

All Things are NOT relative.

Objective reality exists and it’s that pesky thing which persists in being there even though you refuse to believe in it.

If you don’t believe me, well, you don’t have to. You can put this to the test. Just jump off the top of the tallest skyscraper you can find without a parachute. Keep telling yourself that gravity doesn’t exist. Let me know what you find when you reach the sidewalk. I’ll listen to you if you feel up to having a conversation. tongue rolleye

I agree with your underlying argument, but I am not so sure about the statement “all things are not relative”. IMO, even in an objective reality all things can be relative. I do not believe they are mutually exclusive.

 Signature 

Art is the creation of that which evokes an emotional response, leading to thoughts of the noblest kind.
W4U

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 March 2011 08:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Jr. Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  21
Joined  2011-03-16

but when we cannot find meanings to our own lives which most people cant seem to do we choose to believe in religion because the answers are given for us, if we could not find answers or meaning it would terrify us so, we believe in people who claim to have the answers not necessarily because they do but, because its easier to live with meaning then without it, and truth is what we make it if we believe that the the truth is we can fly we will find a way to do so, not simply jump off a building that is unrealistic, the reality of it is we can achieve anything we set our sights for, and i did not state we could fly with out machinery, but rather if we believe we can we will make it so using our belief

 Signature 

for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction- sir isaac newton

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 March 2011 09:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  5551
Joined  2010-06-16

If a child hears about square roots and asks what the square root of three is, I might say twelve.  I gave an answer, but it’s quite wrong.  The child could learn how to extract square roots and learn the the real answer is 1.732.  In other words - there is no intrinsic meaning to our lives, and if we believe what others (“experts” who get their information from “god”) tell us we are demeaning and diminishing ourselves.  It’s up to us to decide what the meaning of our life should be and work to achieve it.  We build our own meaning. 

Occam

 Signature 

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 March 2011 09:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1283
Joined  2011-03-12

but when we cannot find meanings to our own lives which most people cant seem to do we choose to believe in religion because the answers are given for us, if we could not find answers or meaning it would terrify us so, we believe in people who claim to have the answers not necessarily because they do but, because its easier to live with meaning then without it, and truth is what we make it if we believe that the the truth is we can fly we will find a way to do so, not simply jump off a building that is unrealistic,

The problem with all of that can be summed up in five words: It’s the lazy way out.

Yep, that’s right. Lazy! It avoids having to deal with a complex and sometimes inexplicable world by letting somebody else tell us what to think.

the reality of it is we can achieve anything we set our sights for, and i did not state we could fly with out machinery, but rather if we believe we can we will make it so using our belief

But in this case, belief won’t make it so. Like I said, you can test this. Just keep telling yourself that you believe you can cancel out gravity with the “Power Of Belief” after jumping off the Sears Tower.

Tell me how it works out. I expect I’ll have to dial 1-800-Oujiaboard to get an answer so please feel free to name me as the beneficiary on your life insurance policy before you try this.

 Signature 

Question authority and think for yourself. Big Brother does not know best and never has.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 17 March 2011 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  491
Joined  2008-02-25

Meaning to life is a subjective, evaluative, emotive kind of thinking.  Leejc, you keep using the word “truth” and “meaning” interchangeably.  Maybe this is just the way I define “truth” but to me “truth” refers to objective statements, like “the earth goes around the sun.”  Just because subjective, emotive thinking is not the same as “truth” doesn’t mean that it is not very powerful.  Like you say, many seemingly impossible feats have been made possible because someone decided to believe that accomplishing this feat has “meaning.”  It took more than just the belief that it had meaning.  The technology had to be developed to do it.  That took a lot of work and research.  All that work and research was driven by the meaning that was given to the project.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 March 2011 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
Jr. Member
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  21
Joined  2011-03-16

thank you for your opinions, i now have something to think about

 Signature 

for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction- sir isaac newton

Profile
 
 
Posted: 18 March 2011 02:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1397
Joined  2010-04-22

For me, I think of “truth” as being one of 3 possibilities of presentation:

Something can be true by definition. (Andrew is my name.)
Something can be true by induction. (Gravity seems to always make things fall down.)
Something can be true by deduction. (If I am awake and if awake people breathe, then I must be breathing.)

 Signature 

“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 3
1