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A Clockwork Orange
Posted: 22 December 2011 01:56 PM   [ Ignore ]
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I’m curious what makes a book/story/movie such as A Clockwork Orange rank among the best of American fictions?


i won’t share my opinion, heck, i still can’t even figure out what the title refers to   :red:

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Posted: 22 December 2011 02:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Well, it’s Kubrick’s film, so that might have a lot to do with it. I saw it a long time ago and the only thing I remember is the threesome in fast motion. I don’t think I liked it. My favourite Kubrick’s movies are 2011 and Eyes Wide Shut.

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Posted: 22 December 2011 02:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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I though it was great movies but obviously different.  Is it great fiction?  I don’t know nor do I care I just know I enjoyed it.

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Posted: 22 December 2011 05:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 22 December 2011 01:56 PM

I’m curious what makes a book/story/movie such as A Clockwork Orange rank among the best of American fictions?


i won’t share my opinion, heck, i still can’t even figure out what the title refers to   :red:

It’s actually British fiction; the movie was adapted from a novel written by Anthony Burgess (1917-1993). Burgess actually disliked the movie and disliked Kubrick, because he felt Kubrick left out some important parts and got the vibe of the story wrong. I think the main character “Alex”, was played with a lot of charisma by Malcolm Mc Dowell; maybe that caused people to respond strongly to it. The soundtrack surely helped, and the sense of violence and chaos in the movie might be (unconciously) attractive to many. Who can say for sure though - I know some who can’t stand the movie!  Also, the title refers to something that is organic (a person), but is expected to be a machine (in the forward of the novel, Burgess says the term “clockwork orange” was a slang word from his hometown of Manchester England, supposedly it meant something bizzare, and he thought it a good descriptive title). . Let me know if you have any other questions about it, I’m an expert.

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Posted: 25 December 2011 02:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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mid atlantic - 22 December 2011 05:32 PM
citizenschallenge.pm - 22 December 2011 01:56 PM

I’m curious what makes a book/story/movie such as A Clockwork Orange rank among the best of American fictions?

{...}
Also, the title refers to something that is organic (a person), but is expected to be a machine (in the forward of the novel, Burgess says the term “clockwork orange” was a slang word from his hometown of Manchester England, supposedly it meant something bizzare, and he thought it a good descriptive title). .

Let me know if you have any other questions about it, I’m an expert.

cool I like experts.

thanks for the info…

mid atlantic - 22 December 2011 05:32 PM

Burgess actually disliked the movie and disliked Kubrick, because he felt Kubrick left out some important parts and got the vibe of the story wrong.

got any scuttlebutt?

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Posted: 25 December 2011 11:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 25 December 2011 02:20 PM
mid atlantic - 22 December 2011 05:32 PM
citizenschallenge.pm - 22 December 2011 01:56 PM

I’m curious what makes a book/story/movie such as A Clockwork Orange rank among the best of American fictions?

{...}
Also, the title refers to something that is organic (a person), but is expected to be a machine (in the forward of the novel, Burgess says the term “clockwork orange” was a slang word from his hometown of Manchester England, supposedly it meant something bizzare, and he thought it a good descriptive title). .

Let me know if you have any other questions about it, I’m an expert.

cool I like experts.

thanks for the info…

mid atlantic - 22 December 2011 05:32 PM

Burgess actually disliked the movie and disliked Kubrick, because he felt Kubrick left out some important parts and got the vibe of the story wrong.

got any scuttlebutt?

  Burgess and Kubrick got along well when they first started collaborating,but Anthony Burgess claimed later that Kubrick became unbearably egotistical, and changed many details in the novel without his consent. The biggest alteration was, the novel had a very different ending from the movie; in the novel, the main guy “Alex” got released from prison and was psychologically messed up from the “treatment” they used on him in order to stop his violent impulses. A few weeks later, he by chance encounters a few people that he brutalized previously, and they do the same to him - and “Alex” almost dies. During his recovery from the attack, “Alex” discovers that the revenge against him “cured the treatment” that was intended to curtail his sadism, and he’s back to his old ways of killing and raping…... well in the final pages, Alex is nearing 20 years old and he finds himself maturing. He no longer gets any pleasure from causing destruction, he finds it childish and boring(this part was made subtley funny by Burgess - that a 19-20 year old feels like an old man who has wasted his life)and he want to spend his adulthood being creative, by writing symphonies.  Well, in the movie version Kubrick left this part out, in Burgess’s view he thought Kubrick wanted to glorify violence while “hiding behind art”- Burgess was pissed off about that and felt it threw the plot off.                                                                                                                                                                                    I’ve heard that Stanley Kubrick did have a reputation for egomania and overbearence;  however his in defense, Anthony Burgess was pretty prejudiced against Americans in general.  During WW2, Burgess’s wife was raped and beaten by a group American sailors stationed in Britain-so that probably tainted his view strongly.

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Posted: 26 December 2011 06:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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I’ve heard that Stanley Kubrick did have a reputation for egomania and overbearence;...

Perhaps. All I know is the content of what I saw in his work, and like the work of “artists” such as Andy Worhol, his talants as a producer are grotesquely over-rated. Simply put, he tried too hard to be either profound and “artistic” that all he managed to be was bizaar, inexplicable, and tedious in the extreme.

If anybody wants to call him “Brilliant” be my guest, but I don’t see how boring your audiance to death would earn such an accolade.

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Posted: 26 December 2011 06:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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I agree, Curmugdeon. Both Kubrick and Warhol produced a lot of bad art and some good art. Not a trademark of a genius, IMO. Anything a genius does will be either good or very good.

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Posted: 26 December 2011 09:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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mid atlantic - 22 December 2011 05:32 PM

Well, in the movie version Kubrick left this part out, in Burgess’s view he thought Kubrick wanted to glorify violence while “hiding behind art”- Burgess was pissed off about that and felt it threw the plot off.

I can see that but it sounds like it would have added another hour to the movie, even if it would have helped make more sense out of it for squares like me.
Glorifying gratuitous violence while “hiding behind art” makes me think of that Tarantino freak, another genius in his own eyes.

                                                                                                                 

mid atlantic - 22 December 2011 05:32 PM

I’ve heard that Stanley Kubrick did have a reputation for egomania and overbearence;  however his in defense, Anthony Burgess was pretty prejudiced against Americans in general.  During WW2, Burgess’s wife was raped and beaten by a group American sailors stationed in Britain-so that probably tainted his view strongly.

wow, yuk, wonder how much that had to do with the germination of his story.

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Posted: 26 December 2011 02:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 26 December 2011 09:27 AM
mid atlantic - 22 December 2011 05:32 PM

Well, in the movie version Kubrick left this part out, in Burgess’s view he thought Kubrick wanted to glorify violence while “hiding behind art”- Burgess was pissed off about that and felt it threw the plot off.

I can see that but it sounds like it would have added another hour to the movie, even if it would have helped make more sense out of it for squares like me.
Glorifying gratuitous violence while “hiding behind art” makes me think of that Tarantino freak, another genius in his own eyes.

                                                                                                                 

mid atlantic - 22 December 2011 05:32 PM

I’ve heard that Stanley Kubrick did have a reputation for egomania and overbearence;  however his in defense, Anthony Burgess was pretty prejudiced against Americans in general.  During WW2, Burgess’s wife was raped and beaten by a group American sailors stationed in Britain-so that probably tainted his view strongly.

wow, yuk, wonder how much that had to do with the germination of his story.

I guardedthe door whilst Malcolm McDowell snuck into a public ladies room “for a quick piss” a few yrs ago.  He seemed quite adorable.

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Posted: 26 December 2011 08:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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Equal Opportunity Curmudgeon - 26 December 2011 06:25 AM

I’ve heard that Stanley Kubrick did have a reputation for egomania and overbearence;...

Perhaps. All I know is the content of what I saw in his work, and like the work of “artists” such as Andy Worhol, his talants as a producer are grotesquely over-rated. Simply put, he tried too hard to be either profound and “artistic” that all he managed to be was bizaar, inexplicable, and tedious in the extreme.

If anybody wants to call him “Brilliant” be my guest, but I don’t see how boring your audiance to death would earn such an accolade.

I agree mostly - not that I know anything about making movies, but some of Kubrick’s work I can get into, some kind of falls flat.  Warhol on the other hand, I think he was famous for hanging out with other famous people more talented than him.

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Posted: 26 December 2011 08:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Chevstriss - 26 December 2011 02:01 PM
citizenschallenge.pm - 26 December 2011 09:27 AM
mid atlantic - 22 December 2011 05:32 PM

Well, in the movie version Kubrick left this part out, in Burgess’s view he thought Kubrick wanted to glorify violence while “hiding behind art”- Burgess was pissed off about that and felt it threw the plot off.

I can see that but it sounds like it would have added another hour to the movie, even if it would have helped make more sense out of it for squares like me.
Glorifying gratuitous violence while “hiding behind art” makes me think of that Tarantino freak, another genius in his own eyes.

                                                                                                                 

mid atlantic - 22 December 2011 05:32 PM

I’ve heard that Stanley Kubrick did have a reputation for egomania and overbearence;  however his in defense, Anthony Burgess was pretty prejudiced against Americans in general.  During WW2, Burgess’s wife was raped and beaten by a group American sailors stationed in Britain-so that probably tainted his view strongly.

wow, yuk, wonder how much that had to do with the germination of his story.

I guardedthe door whilst Malcolm McDowell snuck into a public ladies room “for a quick piss” a few yrs ago.  He seemed quite adorable.

Awesome, I’ve read that he’s a down to earth guy.

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Posted: 26 December 2011 08:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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citizenschallenge.pm - 26 December 2011 09:27 AM
mid atlantic - 22 December 2011 05:32 PM

Well, in the movie version Kubrick left this part out, in Burgess’s view he thought Kubrick wanted to glorify violence while “hiding behind art”- Burgess was pissed off about that and felt it threw the plot off.

I can see that but it sounds like it would have added another hour to the movie, even if it would have helped make more sense out of it for squares like me.
Glorifying gratuitous violence while “hiding behind art” makes me think of that Tarantino freak, another genius in his own eyes.

                                                                                                                 

mid atlantic - 22 December 2011 05:32 PM

I’ve heard that Stanley Kubrick did have a reputation for egomania and overbearence;  however his in defense, Anthony Burgess was pretty prejudiced against Americans in general.  During WW2, Burgess’s wife was raped and beaten by a group American sailors stationed in Britain-so that probably tainted his view strongly.

wow, yuk, wonder how much that had to do with the germination of his story.

I feel the same about Tarantino, although some of his movies have cool soundtracks IMO.  I discovered Miserlou by Dick Dale from “Pulp Fiction”.

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Posted: 27 December 2011 02:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Just look here: Aestheticization of violence. Just remember that ‘Aestheticization of violence’ is not the same as ‘glorification of violence’.

Just search for ‘violence delacroix’ in Google pictures for many other examples. Delacroix was (partially) the Tarantino of painting…

I like many of the Tarantino movies, ‘Sin City’ of Robert Rodriguez, and ‘Clockwork Orange’ as well, even if I do not pretend to fully understand it.

Do not forget that many fairy tales are also full of violence.

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Posted: 27 December 2011 07:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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GdB - 27 December 2011 02:37 AM

Do not forget that many fairy tales are also full of violence.

Not to mention The Iliad!

I’m not much into violent movies, but recognize that Kubrik was a filmic genius of another order ... it’s the famous mafia films that get my goat because they do seem to me to glorify thug life.

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Posted: 27 December 2011 08:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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dougsmith - 27 December 2011 07:49 AM
GdB - 27 December 2011 02:37 AM

Do not forget that many fairy tales are also full of violence.

Not to mention The Iliad!

Oh, sorry. But I have had no classical education…  ;-)

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