2 of 3
who is this man?
Posted: 11 September 2013 06:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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WOW!!!!!!!!!!!! A whole magnum opus to say absolutely nothing.


Question authority and think for yourself. Big Brother does not know best and never has.

Posted: 11 September 2013 07:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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Did you notice near the end, when talking about Jesus being both man and god, he says, “That wouldn’t make sense.” Out of all the things he said before that, he chooses that one to comment it’s sensibility.

Posted: 11 September 2013 11:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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yasoooo - 11 September 2013 12:38 AM

the believers who make it into Paradise, male and female, are promised beautiful companions, known as “Houris” in Arabic. The Quran describes them in some detail as such:

“Serving [the believers] will be immortal youths with jeweled and crystal cups filled with the purest wine which will neither give them headache nor hangover, with fruits and meats of their desire. They will be fair ones with lovely intense eyes like guarded pearls; A reward for the good deeds of their past life.” (56:17-24)
“We have created mates for them and made them virgins, matched in age, for the companions of the right hand.” (56:35-38)

“They will be chaste, restraining their eyes in modesty, never touched by man or Jinn.”(55:56)

“Serving them will be immortal servants. When you see them, they will look like scattered pearls.” (76:19)

The Islamic scholar Yusuf Ali defines the word “Houris” in his english interpretation of Qur’an as “Youths of perpetual freshness.” He also described them in his commentary: “The companionship of Beauty and Grace is one of the highest pleasures of life. In this bodily life it takes bodily form. In the higher life it takes a higher form…The pronoun in Arabic is in the feminine gender. It is made clear that these maidens for heavenly society will be of special creation,-of virginal purity, grace, and beauty, inspiring and inspired by love, with the question of time and age eliminated.”
The Houris are basically creations of God, intelligent yet soulless and created to serve the believer who goes to Paradise. They are created for the purpose of serving the believer, and as such, they dont exactly have free will. They are described as pure, beautiful, lustrous, virgin, and more perfect than any human on earth. Imagine the woman of your dreams.

Women aren’t left out: A man in paradise will get numerous female servants for himself, while a woman would get male servants. The Quran says that women shall be compensated just as well and says about the believers that “they” (the gender unspecified) shall have perfected mates/spouses as a reward of their deeds (2:25, 3:15, 4:57). So women will get the man of their dreams. Actually, even better than you could dream of.

In Paradise, you can marry them. You can interpret the “mates” as being spouses. Even if you were married on earth, they will be invisible to your spouse. Islam is pretty clear in saying that guiltless sex is a reward in Paradise. Since they are more like spouses, they will probably be given the status of one instead of a servant.

There is no direct evidence in the Qur’an to support there being 70 or 72 for each person. The numerical value of 70 is derived from a Quranic commentary by Quranic scholar Ibn Kathir. The number 72 comes from a hadith that says “‘The smallest reward [each] for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from [Damascus] to [Yemen].’”



Jesus is a figure who is loved and revered by billions of people the world over.  Yet there is so much confusion surrounding the status of this colossal personality.  Muslims and Christians both hold Jesus in high regard but view him in very different ways.

The questions raised in this article aim to get to the heart of the issues surrounding Jesus: Is Jesus God? Or was he sent by God? Who was the real historical Jesus?

Some ambiguous verses of the Bible can be applied erroneously to show that Jesus is in some way divine.  But if we look at the clear, direct verses of the Bible, we see again and again that Jesus is being referred to as an extraordinary human being and nothing more.  What emerges, when we consider the historical and logical facts about Jesus’ life, is conclusive proof not only that Jesus cannot be God, but that he never claimed to be either.

What follows are five lines of reasoning which clarify this subject for us through the Bible itself and thereby allow us to discover the real Jesus.
1.    Jesus Never Calls Himself God

The Bible (in spite of being changed and adulterated over time) contains many verses in which Jesus speaks of God as a separate person to himself.  Here are just a few of them:

When a man addressed Jesus as “Good Teacher”, he replied “Why do you call me good? No one is good except the one God.’’ [Mark 10:18]

In another instance he says: “I can’t do anything by myself.  Whatever I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just.  I don’t seek my own will but the will of the one who sent me.” [John 5:30]

Jesus speaks of God as a separate being to himself: I’m going up to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.  [John 20:17]
In this verse he affirms that he was sent by God: This is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent.  [John 17:3]

If Jesus was God he would have told people to worship him, but he did the opposite and disapproved anyone worshipping him: And in vain they worship Me [Matthew 15:9]

If Jesus claimed to be God than there should be hundreds of verses in the Bible which would have mentioned it.  But there is not a single verse in the entire Bible in which Jesus says I am God, worship me.
2.    Jesus as Son and Lord?

Jesus is sometimes referred to as ‘Lord’ in the Bible and at other times as ‘Son of God’.  God is called the ‘Father’, so putting these names together it could be claimed that Jesus is the son of God.  But if we look at each of these titles in context we will find that they are symbolic and not to be taken literally.

‘Son of God’ is a term used in ancient Hebrew for a righteous person.  God calls Israel his ‘son’: This is what the LORD says: Israel is my oldest son.[Exodus 4:22].  Also, David is called the ‘Son of God’: The LORD has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’ [Psalm 2:7].  In fact anyone who is righteous is referred to as God’s ‘son’: All who are led by God’s Spirit are God’s sons and daughters.  [Romans 8:14].

In the same way, when the word ‘Father’ is used to refer to God it shouldn’t be taken literally.  Instead it’s a way of saying God is the creator, sustainer, cherisher etc.  There are many verses for us to understand this symbolic meaning of the word ‘Father’, for example: one God and Father of all.  [Ephesians 4:6].

Jesus is sometimes called ‘Lord’ by the disciples.  ‘Lord’ is a term used for God and also for people who are held in high esteem.  There are many examples of the word ‘Lord’ being used for people in the Bible: So they (Joseph’s brothers) went up to Joseph’s steward and spoke to him at the entrance to the house.  “We beg your pardon, our lord,” they said.  [Genesis 43:19-20].  Also, in other parts of the Bible, Jesus is even called a ‘servant’ of God by the disciples: the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.  [Acts 3:13].  This clearly shows that when ‘Lord’ is used to refer to Jesus, it is a title of respect not of divinity.
3.    The Nature of Jesus

The nature of Jesus was totally different to that of God.  There are many parts of the Bible that highlight this difference in nature:

God is All-Knowing but Jesus by his own admission was not All-Knowing.  This can be seen in the following passage when Jesus says “But nobody knows when that day or hour will come, not the heavenly angels and not the Son.  Only the Father knows.” [Matthew 24:36]

God is independent and he doesn’t need sleep, food or water.  Jesus however ate, drank, slept and depended on God: As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father.  [John 6:57].  Another sign of Jesus’ dependence on God is that he prayed to God: Going a little farther, he (Jesus) fell with his face to the ground and prayed [Matthew 26:39].  This shows that Jesus himself sought help from God.  God, being the one who answers prayers does not need to pray to anyone.  Also, Jesus said: I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than me.  [John 14:28].

The Bible is clear that God is unseen and is not a man: for no one may see me and live.  [Exodus 33:20], God is not a man [Numbers 23:19].  Jesus on the other hand was a man who was seen by thousands of people, so he could not be God.  Furthermore, the Bible makes it clear that God is too great to be inside his creation: But how could God possibly live on earth with people? If heaven, even the highest heaven, can’t contain you [2 Chronicles 6:18].  According to this verse Jesus cannot be God living on the earth.

Also the Bible calls Jesus a Prophet [Matthew 21:10-11], so how could Jesus be God and be God’s Prophet at the same time? That wouldn’t make sense.

Additionally the Bible informs us that God does not change: I the Lord do not change.  [Malachi 3:6:].  Jesus however went through many changes in his life such as age, height, weight etc.

These are just some of the proofs within the Bible, which make it clear that the nature of Jesus and God is completely different.  Some people may claim that Jesus had both a human and a divine nature.  This is a claim that Jesus never made, and is in clear contradiction to the Bible which maintains that God has one nature.


Posted: 14 September 2013 01:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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so some one tell me;

I agree with you, however, that Jesus Christ was send as a messenger by God, nothing else. Jesus said so himself as quoted in John 7:16: “I am not teaching you my own thoughts, but those of God who sent me.”

Much of the blame for distoring the mission of Jesus Christ belongs to the apostle Paul


Jesus Christ peace be upon him
Not sacrificed for any one

You have a disease
Then comes your brother
  Receive treatment instead of you

Is this acceptable to the logic of the mind?

Death to the people who worshiped the calf is repentance
At the time of the Prophet Moses, peace be upon him

At the time of the Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him

Law requires repentance from sin without having to death

Jesus Christ peace be upon him
Not sacrificed for any one

(the soul that sinneth, it shall die)

Each person is responsible for his actions

(the soul that sinneth, it shall die)


Posted: 14 September 2013 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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Joined  2010-06-16

Yasoooo, you apparently don’t understand that there is no such thing as a god.  That is all mythology that may have been believed in the early days of human civilization, but we are seeing more and more evidence every day that shows that the whole god story is false. 

Jesus was a man, either a very good con-man who traded on the ignorance of the people or an honest man with mental problems.  Whichever way it was, it doesn’t make his pronouncements special.  If one wants to learn how to behave in human society, one is much better off reading the writings of Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle then move into the more modern philosophers.  It also wouldn’t hurt to take quite a few physics, chemistry and biology courses at the local college.



Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Posted: 15 September 2013 09:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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yasoooo - 09 September 2013 01:37 AM
Write4U - 07 September 2013 01:32 AM

And what are you trying to say?  Some cultural behaviors are superior to others?  One believer is superior over a non-believer?

Give me one reason why any of the above has any meaning.  Even animals dress in different colors and feathers. What is wrong with being different, as long as it does not physically inhibits anyone else’s life?  Taking offense at ethnic or cultural differences is an ethical crime in itself. You are as much a stranger to the stranger you are facing. Should he take offense at your hairstyle?  Every human has equal right to be respected, until they break a secular law, but that does not seem to be the case of fundamentalist theocracy.

The proof of virtue lies in the humane actions of a person, not in the fact that women do not wear skullcaps anymore.

There are Good people who live by common courtesy and good will, a symbiotic relationship, Virtuous, by any other name.
And there are Bad people who act with total disregard for other’s rights, for their own satisfaction, Sinful, by any other name.

When fundamentalist zealots assume the spiritual authority to physically punish a woman for showing her ankles, the above comparisons of which behaviors are the “most” virtuous seems a little trite, no?

btw, to answer the OP question “This man most certainly was the product a man and a woman mating”....... ;-)

Just remember you are responsible for any actions taken in the name of the god or gods you create.



Not culture
But the teachings and commandments of God

  The Message of Jesus

The Prophets of the Old Testament such as Abraham, Noah and Jonah never preached that God is part of a Trinity, and did not believe in Jesus as their saviour.  Their message was simple: there is one God and He alone deserves your worship.  It doesn’t make sense that God sent Prophets for thousands of years with the same essential message, and then all of a sudden he says he is in a Trinity and that you must believe in Jesus to be saved.

The truth is that Jesus preached the same message that the Prophets in the Old Testament preached.  There is a passage in the Bible which really emphasizes his core message.  A man came to Jesus and asked “Which is the first commandment of all?”Jesus answered, “The first of all the commandments is Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.’’[Mark 12:28-29].  So the greatest commandment, the most important belief according to Jesus is that God is one.  If Jesus was God he would have said ‘I am God, worship me’, but he didn’t.  He merely repeated a verse from the Old Testament confirming that God is One.

Some people claim that Jesus came to die for the sins of the world.  But consider the following statement of Jesus: This is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent.  I have glorified you on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.[John 17:3-4].  Jesus said this before he was caught and taken to be crucified.  It is clear from this verse that Jesus did not come to die for the sins of the world, as he finished the work God gave him before he was taken to be crucified.

Also Jesus said “salvation is of the Jews” [John 4:22].  So according to this we don’t need to believe in the Trinity or that Jesus died for our sins to attain salvation since the Jews don’t have these beliefs.
5.    The Early Christians

Historically there were many sects in early Christianity who had a range of beliefs regarding Jesus[1].  Some believed Jesus was God, others believed Jesus was not God but partly divine, and yet others believed he was a human being and nothing more.  Trinitarian Christianity which is the belief that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one in three persons became the dominant sect of Christianity, once it was formalized as the state religion of the Roman Empire in the 4th Century.  Christians who denied Jesus being God were persecuted by the Roman Authorities[2].  From this point onwards the Trinitarian belief became widespread amongst Christians.  There were various movements in early Christianity which denied the Trinity, among the more well known of them is Adoptionism and Arianism.

Dr Jerald Dirks who is an expert on early Christianity had this to say on the subject: Early Christianity was quite conflicted about the issue of the nature of Jesus.  The various Adoptionist positions within early Christianity were numerous and at times dominate.  One can even speculate that Arian and Nestorian Christianity might well be an extremely sizable source within Christianity today, if it were not for the fact that these two branches of Christianity, which were located primarily in the middle east and in North Africa were so similar to the Islamic teaching regarding the nature of Jesus that they quite naturally were absorbed into Islam at the beginning of the seventh century.”[3]

Since there were so many sects in early Christianity, each with different beliefs about Jesus and with their own versions of the Bible, which one can we say was following the true teachings of Jesus?

It doesn’t make sense that God sends countless Prophets like Noah, Abraham and Moses to tell people to believe in one God, and then suddenly sends a radically different message of the Trinity which contradicts his previous Prophets teachings.  It is clear that the sect of Christianity who believed Jesus to be a human Prophet and nothing more, were following the true teachings of Jesus.  This is because their concept of God is the same as that which was taught by the Prophets in the Old Testament.
Jesus in Islam

The Islamic belief about Jesus demystifies for us who the real Jesus was.  Jesus in Islam was an extraordinary individual, chosen by God as a Prophet and sent to the Jewish people.  He never preached that he himself was God or the actual son of God.  He was miraculously born without a father, and he performed many amazing miracles such as healing the blind and the lepers and raising the dead – all by God’s permission.  Muslims believe that Jesus will return before the day of Judgement to bring justice and peace to the world.  This Islamic belief about Jesus is similar to the belief of some of the early Christians.  In the Quran, God addresses the Christians about Jesus in the following way:

O People of the Book, do not commit excesses in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary and a spirit from Him.  So believe in God and His Messengers and do not speak of a ‘Trinity’– stop [this], that is better for you– God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.  [4:171]

Islam is not just another religion.  It is the same message preached by Moses, Jesus and Abraham.  Islam literally means ‘submission to God’ and it teaches us to have a direct relationship with God.  It reminds us that since God created us, no one should be worshipped except God alone.  It also teaches that God is nothing like a human being or like anything that we can imagine.  The concept of God is summarized in the Quran as:

“Say, He is God, the One.  God, the Absolute.  He does not give birth, nor was He born, and there is nothing like Him.” (Quran 112:1-4)[4]

Becoming a Muslim is not turning your back to Jesus.  Rather it’s going back to the original teachings of Jesus and obeying him.



Just remember you are responsible for any actions taken in the name of any god or gods you create.


Gary the Human

All the Gods and all religions are created by humans, to meet human needs and accomplish human ends.

Posted: 16 September 2013 02:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Occam. - 14 September 2013 03:20 PM

Yasoooo, you apparently don’t understand that there is no such thing as a god.  That is all mythology that may have been believed in the early days of human civilization, but we are seeing more and more evidence every day that shows that the whole god story is false. 

Jesus was a man, either a very good con-man who traded on the ignorance of the people or an honest man with mental problems.  Whichever way it was, it doesn’t make his pronouncements special.  If one wants to learn how to behave in human society, one is much better off reading the writings of Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle then move into the more modern philosophers.  It also wouldn’t hurt to take quite a few physics, chemistry and biology courses at the local college.



1.  He is the one God, Who has no partner.
  2.  Nothing is like Him. He is the Creator, not created, nor a part of His creation.
  3.  He is All-Powerful, absolutely Just.


  4.  There is no other entity in the entire universe worthy of worship besides Him.
  5.  He is First, Last, and Everlasting; He was when nothing was, and will be when nothing else remains.
  6.  He is the All-Knowing, and All-Merciful, the Supreme, the Sovereign.
  7.  It is only He Who is capable of granting life to anything.
  8.  Allah knows what is in our hearts. He knows what we conceal and what we reveal.
  9.  Allah is very Gracious and kind to His slaves.

  10.  Allah promises who obey Him to enter Paradise in the hereafter and warned who disobey Him against the Hell.
  11.  Allah is near and he responds to the invocations of the supplicants.
  12.  Allah says in the Quran, “Why should Allah punish you if you have thanked (Him) and have believed in Him.”
  13.  Allah does not forgive setting up partners (in worship) with Him.

  14.  Allah is the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful and he is also Severe in punishment.
  15.  He sent His Messengers (peace be upon them) to guide all of mankind.
  16.  He sent Muhammad (pbuh) as the last Prophet and Messenger for all mankind.

  17.  Allah has sent all of His messengers to invite people to worship Him Alone. 
  18.  His book is the Holy Qur’an, the only authentic revealed book in the world that has been kept without change.
  19.  Allah not only warned us against the Satan but also his footsteps.
  20.  Allah is with those who fear Him (keep their duty unto Him) and the good-doers.




1. Bible Says that God is not Man
The Bible says:

Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man…”

Hosea 11:9 “...For I am God, and not man…”

Jesus is called a man many times in the Bible:

John 8:40 “…a man who has told you the truth…”

Acts 2:22 “Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.”

Acts 17:31 “He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed”

1. Tim. 2:5 “…the man Christ Jesus.”

God is not a man, but Jesus, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, was a man, therefore, Jesus was not God.

2. The Bible Says that God Is Not a Son of Man

Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man…nor a son of man…”

The Bible often calls Jesus “a son of man” or “the son of man.”

Matthew 12:40 “…so will the son of man be…”

Matthew 16:27 “For the son of man is going to come…”

Matthew 28 “…until they see the son of man coming in His kingdom.”

Mark 2:10 “But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority…”

John 5:27 “…because He is the son of man.”

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the “son of man” is also used many times speaking of people (Job 25:6; Psalm 80:17; 144:3; Ezekiel 2:1; 2:3; 2:6; 2:8; 3:1; 3:3; 3:4; 3:10; 3:17; 3:25).

Since God would not contradict Himself by first saying He is not the son of a man, then becoming a human being who was called “the son of man”, he would not have done so. Remember God is not the author of confusion. Also, human beings, including Jesus, are called “son of man” specifically to distinguish them from God, who is not a “son of man” according to the Bible.

3. The Bible Says that Jesus Denied He is God

Luke 18:19 Jesus spoke to a man who had called him “good,” asking him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.”

Matthew 19:17 And he said to him, “Why are you asking me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Jesus did not teach people that he was God. If Jesus had been telling people that he was God, he would have complimented the man. Instead, Jesus rebuked him, denying he was good, that is, Jesus denied he was God.

4. The Bible Says that God is Greater than Jesus

John 14:28 “My Father is greater than I.”

John 10:29 “My father is greater than all.”

Jesus can not be God if God is greater than him. The Christian belief that the Father and son are equal is in direct contrast to the clear words from Jesus.

5. Jesus Never Instructed His Disciples to Worship Himself or the Holy Ghost, but God and God Only

Luke 11:2 “When you pray, say Our Father which art in heaven.”

John 16:23 “In that day, you shall ask me nothing. Whatsoever you ask of the Father in my name.”

John 4:23 “The hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”

If Jesus was God, he would have sought worship for himself. Since he didn’t, instead he sought worship for God in the heavens, therefore, he was not God.

6. The Bible Says that Jesus Recognized, Prayed, & Worshipped the Only True God

Jesus prayed to God with the words:

John 17:3 “…that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”

Jesus prayed to God all night:

Luke 6:12 “he continued all night in prayer to God.”


Matthew 20:28: Just as the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve.

How did Jesus pray to God?

Matthew 26:39 ‘…he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father…”

Even Paul said:

Hebrews 5:7 “During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.”

Who was Jesus praying to when he fell on his face with loud cries and petitions? Was it himself? Was Jesus crying in tears to himself pleading to be saved from death? No man, sane or insane, prays to himself! Surely the answer must be a resounding ‘No.’ Jesus was praying to “the only true God.” Jesus was the servant of the One Who sent him. Can there be a clearer proof that Jesus was not God?

The Quran confirms that Jesus called for the worship of the Only True God:

“Truly, God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him (alone). This is the straight path.” (Quran 3:51









[ Edited: 18 September 2013 01:46 AM by yasoooo ]
Posted: 21 September 2013 01:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Son of God, son of David, or son of Man?  Jesus is identified as “son of David” fourteen times in the New Testament, starting with the very first verse (Matthew 1:1).  The Gospel of Luke documents forty-one generations between Jesus and David, while Matthew lists twenty-six.  Jesus, a distant descendant, can only wear the “son of David” title metaphorically.  But how then should we understand the title, “son of God?”

The “Trilemma,” a common proposal of Christian missionaries, states that “Jesus was either a lunatic, a liar, or the Son of God, as he claimed to be.”  For the sake of argument, let’s agree that Jesus was neither a lunatic nor a liar.  Let’s also agree he was precisely what he claimed to be.  But what, exactly, was that?  Jesus called himself “Son of Man” frequently, consistently, perhaps even emphatically, but where did he call himself “Son of God?”

Let’s back up.  What does “Son of God” mean in the first place?  No legitimate Christian sect suggests that God took a wife and had a child, and most certainly none conceive that God fathered a child through a human mother outside of marriage.  Furthermore, to suggest that God physically mated with an element of His creation is so far beyond the limits of religious tolerance as to plummet down the sheer cliff of blasphemy, chasing the mythology of the Greeks.

With no rational explanation available within the tenets of Christian doctrine, the only avenue for closure is to claim yet one more doctrinal mystery.  Here is where the Muslim recalls the question posed in the Quran:

“…How can He have a son when He has no consort?...” (Quran 6:101)

…while others shout, “But God can do anything!”  The Islamic position, however, is that God doesn’t do inappropriate things, only Godly things.  In the Islamic viewpoint, God’s character is integral with His being and consistent with His majesty.

So again, what does “Son of God” mean?  And if Jesus Christ has exclusive rights to the term, why does the Bible record, “...for I (God) am a father to Israel, and Ephraim (i.e. Israel) is my firstborn” (Jeremiah 31:9) and, “...Israel is My son, even my firstborn” (Exodus 4:22)?  Taken in the context of Romans 8:14, which reads, “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God,” many scholars conclude that “Son of God” is metaphorical and, as with christos, doesn’t imply exclusivity.  After all, The Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion confirms that in Jewish idiom “Son of God” is clearly metaphorical.  To quote, “Son of God, term occasionally found in Jewish literature, biblical and post-biblical, but nowhere implying physical descent from the Godhead.”[1]  Hasting’s Bible Dictionary comments:

In Semitic usage “sonship” is a conception somewhat loosely employed to denote moral rather than physical or metaphysical relationship.  Thus “sons of Belial” (Jg 19:22 etc.) are wicked men, not descendants of Belial; and in the NT the “children of the bridechamber” are wedding guests.  So a “son of God” is a man, or even a people, who reflect the character of God.  There is little evidence that the title was used in Jewish circles of the Messiah, and a sonship which implied more than a moral relationship would be contrary to Jewish monotheism.[2]

And in any case, the list of candidates for “son of God” begins with Adam, as per Luke 3:38: “...Adam, which was the son of God.”

Those who rebut by quoting Matthew 3:17 (“And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, ‘This is My beloved son, in whom I am well pleased’”) have overlooked the point that the Bible describes many people, Israel and Adam included, as “sons of God.”  Both II Samuel 7:13-14 and I Chronicles 22:10 read, “He (Solomon) shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.  I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.”

Entire nations are referred to as sons, or children of God.  Examples include:

Genesis 6:2, “That the sons of God saw the daughters of men…”

Genesis 6:4, “There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men…”

Deuteronomy 14:1, “Ye are the children of the Lord your God.”

Job 1:6, “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD…”

Job 2:1, “Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD…”

Job 38:7, “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”

Philippians 2:15, “that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation…”

1 John 3:1-2, “Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! … Beloved, now we are children of God…”

In Matthew 5:9 Jesus says, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.”  Later in Matthew 5:45, Jesus prescribed to his followers the attainment of noble attributes, “that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.”  Not exclusively his Father, but their Father …


Posted: 21 September 2013 07:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Yasooo wrote: The “Trilemma,” a common proposal of Christian missionaries, states that “Jesus was either a lunatic, a liar, or the Son of God, as he claimed to be.”

There is a fourth option the missionaries disregarded: He is a myth, and that explains everything.


Posted: 22 September 2013 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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I understand the point you are saying.
I think George did a good wrap on the subject and Occam point out the obvious.

Here are some of my points to remember when dealing with religion.
Jews are the people of the book. Christians are the people of faith and belief. Muslims are people of Muhammad’s sect. Atheists are God’s people of truth.

The points you are makings are correct from a viewpoint in time and belief of certain ideas that may or may not be true.

Religions evolve and religious thinking changes over time.

I really think that if you studied religion you would be able to write a book about all the things that are wrong with your points about Christians vs. Islam’s following of Jesus. 

But if you did, so few people would be able to understand your thoughts because a very small percentage of people really understand religion.

The biggest problem I have in your post is the way you use “God”. For example the God of Adam had a name and wife and kids. The god of Noah and Abraham were also different gods. And Moses himself was most likely a God. The understanding of “Jesus” has also left out many modern day view points.

A point to remember is the bible does not have one original idea or thought in the concept of religion. I am not sure about the Quran, but it is so new that I bet it does not either.

As far as your point of who is following Jesus better, the Muslim’s or the Christians? I do not think it matters because it is looking like Jesus was Gnostic in teachings that were highly discarded by the time the bible was written and the new Catholic ideas were followed by the Muslim’s.

So I have to give the Christians and Muslims a failing grade in following the true teachings of Jesus when it comes to understanding God.

Posted: 22 September 2013 01:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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Occam. - 07 September 2013 03:27 PM
VYAZMA - 07 September 2013 10:20 AM
Occam. - 07 September 2013 10:08 AM

Sorry, Yasooo, but that is just very long winded mythology.  Although your posts have essentially no factual data, people might more disposed to reading them if you cut the future ones down to about ten percent of their present size.


I don’t think 10% is going to cut it for me.
Maybe .001% of original size might work.

  Hey, I’m a moderator and Doug keeps telling me that I’m supposed to be nice.  :lol:


How’s that working for you? ;)

Posted: 22 September 2013 02:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Yasoo, If your posts are over a 1/2 page long, I will not likely read them.  (I suspect other potential readers will not either.)  So please take a hint from the style of Occam, (Peace be upon him), and keep your posts concise.


As a fabrication of our own consciousness, our assignations of meaning are no less “real”, but since humans and the fabrications of our consciousness are routinely fraught with error, it makes sense, to me, to, sometimes, question such fabrications.

Posted: 22 September 2013 06:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Joined  2010-06-16

Quoting Lois:

How’s that working for you?  :wink:

It’s a good thing I no longer have any pets because I’d probably be kicking them to vent my true feelings about some of those Gone With the Wind posts. :lol:


[ Edited: 22 September 2013 06:21 PM by Occam. ]

Succinctness, clarity’s core.

Posted: 24 September 2013 01:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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MikeYohe - 22 September 2013 11:46 AM

I understand the point you are saying.
I think George did a good wrap on the subject and Occam point out the obvious.

The Quran is the holy book which Muslims recite and turn to for guidance in all aspects of their lives. Its verses have remained intact since their original revelation by God in the 7th century. This brochure explains the divine origin of the Quran by elaborating upon its preservation, authenticity and miracles. It also discusses the Quranic message which has universal appeal and is relevant for all times.

The Quran is the last testament in a series of divine revelations from God (Allah in Arabic). It consists of the unaltered and direct words of God, which were revealed through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammadp, the final prophet of Islam, more than 1400 years ago.

Islam is a continuation of the message received by previous prophets, such as Noah, Abraham, David, Moses and Jesus, peace be upon them all. Therefore, the Quran maintains the pure teachings of previous revelations, including the Torah and the Gospel. The Quran describes that all the prophets taught people to believe in the One God, the Creator. The messengers also instructed them to spend their lives with God-consciousness, doing good deeds and avoiding sins. Moreover, they warned their fellow humans of accountability in the afterlife, a subject which the Quran returns to again and again.

Since its revelation, the Quran (also spelled ‘Koran’) has remained preserved in its exact, primary text. While numerous translations of the Quran exist, they are all based on the single, original Arabic script, making the Quran unique from previous scriptures in its pure authenticity.


The distinctive approach of the Quran is that its spiritual message includes practical injunctions aimed at the general welfare of individuals, society and the environment in which we live.

  The Quran’s message is eternal and universal, transcending our differences in race, color, ethnicity and nationality. It provides guidance on every facet of human life – from economics and the ethics of trade to marriage, divorce, parenting, gender issues and inheritance.

Monotheism is a prominent theme of the Quran, affirming that God is One without any partners. In a concisely-worded Quranic chapter, God commands, “Say, ‘He is God the One, God the eternal. He begot no one nor was He begotten. No one is comparable to Him’” (112:1-4).

A foundational message in the Quran is its emphasis on righteous conduct built on firm belief and love for God. The Quran acknowledges human desires while reminding individuals to cultivate their souls. In addition, God calls on humans to use their intellect and reflect on the world around them. The Quran encourages humankind to recognize the signs of God’s existence in the precise order of the universe and the careful placement of every object in the total scheme of creation.

As Cat Stevens (Yusuf Islam), former British pop star, has expressed, “Everything made so much sense. This is the beauty of the Quran; it asks you to reflect and reason… When I read the Quran further, it talked about prayer, kindness and charity. I was not a Muslim yet, but I felt the only answer for me was the Quran and God had sent it to me.”


  Muslims believe that God sent many revelations to humanity throughout history, and over time they underwent changes from their original form. However, God chose to preserve His message to humanity in His final revelation, the Quran. Yet, one might wonder, which evidence supports the claim that the Quran has never been modified?

The Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammadp over a period of 23 years. The unique rhythmic style of the Quran made it easy to memorize, which has been the main source of its preservation. Moreover, since Prophet Muhammadp could not read or write, he appointed scribes to record the Quran as it was being revealed to him. Thus, the complete Quran was not only memorized by Prophet Muhammadp and many of his companions, but it also existed in its entirety in written form during his lifetime.

Within a year after Prophet Muhammadp’s death, a manuscript of the entire Quran was assembled by a committee led by his chief scribe, who followed stringent criteria to safeguard against any errors. This copy was approved unanimously by Prophet Muhammadp’s companions, including hundreds that had memorized the entire Quran. Eventually, several copies of the Quran were compiled in book form and distributed to the major Muslim cities. One such copy is currently at the museum in Tashkent and a facsimile of it, produced in 1905, is available in the Columbia University Library.

The process of memorization began during Prophet Muhammadp’s life and is still emphasized by Muslims to this day. In his book, An Introduction to Hadith, John Burton explains that oral transmission through the generations aids preservation by diminishing reliance solely on written records. Manuscripts which are not protected through memorization can be altered, edited or lost overtime. However, a book that is committed to memory by millions of people across the world over centuries cannot be changed due to the amount of people who know it word-for-word.

God promises in the Quran, “We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)” (15:9).


  Many people mistakenly believe that the Quran was authored by Prophet Muhammadp. In fact, the Quran is the preserved speech of God. At the same time, one might ask, which proofs indicate that the Quran is the Word of God and not the writings of Prophet Muhammadp?

In the Quran, God addresses Prophet Muhammadp, “You never recited any Scripture before We revealed this one to you; you never wrote one down with your hand” (29:48). In other words, Prophet Muhammadp, who was known to be illiterate, neither read any previous scriptures nor wrote the Quran.

Prophet Muhammadp was greatly regarded in his society for his superior character and exceptional manners, earning him the title of the ‘Truthful One.’ Even after his prophethood, the elite of Mecca were ready to make him their leader, so long as he allowed them to continue their pagan lifestyles. Yet, he was willing to forego all worldly glory in order to fulfill his mission. As a result, he suffered patiently through persecution and exile before ultimately succeeding in revolutionizing the entire Arabian Peninsula.

Through it all, God kept on revealing the Quran to him piecemeal. Occasionally, the revelations stopped temporarily, reminding him and others that he had no control over them. Once, when two envoys posed some questions to him, he replied, “Tomorrow I will tell you.” He expected God will inspire the answers in him through revelation and he waited for Angel Gabriel. However, revelation did not come during the next few weeks even as Meccans taunted him. Finally, God sent him the response while admonishing him, “Do not say of anything, ‘I will do that tomorrow,’ without adding, ‘God willing’” (Quran, 18:23-24).

The Quran was revealed at a time when the Arabs excelled in oral poetry. However, despite his intelligence, Prophet Muhammadp was not skilled in composing poetry. Yet, when the Quranic verses were recited, they stunned even the most acclaimed poets in the society. Deeply moved by the rhythmic tone, literary merit and penetrating wisdom of the Quran, many converted to Islam. Indeed, the science of Arabic grammar was developed after the revelation of the Quran, using the Quran as a basis for devising its rules.

There are many miracles in the Quran which themselves attest to the fact that this truly is a divine scripture.


The Quran mentions phenomena that were unknown at the time. In fact, many were only recently discovered by modern science.

For example, God describes the stages of human development in the womb:

We created man from an essence of clay, then We placed him as a drop of fluid in a safe place, then We made that drop into a clinging form, and We made that form into a lump of flesh, and We made that lump into bones, and We clothed those bones with flesh, and later We made him into other forms –– glory be to God, the best of creators! (Quran, 23:12-14)

Professor Keith Moore, a prominent scientist of anatomy and embryology at the University of Toronto, Canada, has stated, “It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God … because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later.”

The Quran also describes the expansion of the universe: “And it is We who have built the universe with (Our creative) power; and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it” (51:47). It was not until 1925, when Edwin Hubble provided evidence of receding galaxies, that the expanding universe came to be accepted as a scientific fact.

Professor Alfred Kroner, a world-famous geologist, explained: “Thinking about many of these questions and thinking where Muhammad came from, he was after all a Bedouin, I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case.”


“This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, containing guidance for those who are mindful of God, who believe in the unseen…” (Quran, 2:2-3).

The Quranic message is relevant to every nation and era – another proof that the Quran is truly the Word of God. Intending for this Book to remain a source of guidance, inspiration, wisdom and healing for all of humanity, God designed its message to transcend the bounds of time.

The Quran’s divine message applies to all aspects of life and rises above the superficial differences among humans. Its teachings guide the spiritual, social and intellectual needs of humanity. It encourages us to remember God often, to humble ourselves before Him, to fulfill our promises, to work together as a community and to remain patient and perseverant in times of hardship. Quranic stories teach us the importance of placing our trust in God, speaking the truth in the face of injustice and dealing with fellow humans with mercy.

In a world starved of love and compassion, the Quran’s universal message provides the solution to the collective despair of the human condition. We invite you to open it and receive the great benefit this book has to offer.

This is a blessed Book which We sent down to you [Muhammad], for people to ponder over its message, and for those with understanding to be reminded. (Quran, 38:29)




Posted: 24 September 2013 01:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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TimB - 22 September 2013 02:29 PM

Yasoo, If your posts are over a 1/2 page long, I will not likely read them.  (I suspect other potential readers will not either.)  So please take a hint from the style of Occam, (Peace be upon him), and keep your posts concise.

To be answered accurately

And more evidence in some cases


The practicality of Islamic Law is one particular aspect that truly impressed me at that time, coming, again, from my Christian background. It is a great blessing that in Islam one finds detailed teachings that result in their desired goals while, at the same time, being extremely practical and consistent with human nature. The lack of such teachings is one of the greatest dilemmas faced by Christianity. For example, with respect to societal cohesion and interaction, the greatest teachings found in the New Testament are what are known as “the hard sayings” of Jesus. They are as follows:

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:38-48).

Christian scholars themselves are perplexed. How are such obviously impossible or impractical teachings to be applied? Just one example of a discussion of these words will suffice to show how perplexing they are to those who staunchly believe in them:

[For interpreting these words, t]he model proposed by Joachim Jeremias is simple, representative, and of continuing influence. According to this model, the Sermon usually is seen in one of three ways: (1) as a perfectionist code, fully in line with the legalism of rabbinic Judaism; (2) as an impossible ideal, meant to drive the believer first to desperation, and then to trust in God’s mercy; or (3) as an ‘interim ethic’ meant for what was expected to be a brief period of waiting in the end time, and which is now obsolete. Jeremias adds his own fourth thesis: The Sermon is an indicative depiction of incipient life in the kingdom of God, which presupposes as its condition of possibility the experience of conversion. More complex or comprehensive schematizations have been offered, but most major interpreters can be understood in relation to the options posed by Jeremias.[1]

In Islam, there are no such dilemmas. The teachings are easy, flexible, practical and completely suited to everyday life, even for a new Muslim living in a completely non-Islamic environment, such as I was. The famed author James A. Michener also noted and appreciated this aspect of Islam. In one of the earliest writings that I had read about Islam, entitled “Islam—the Misunderstood Religion,” Michener wrote,

The Koran is remarkably down-to-earth in its discussion of the good life. In one memorable passage it directs: ‘When ye deal with each other in transactions involving future obligations reduce them to writing… and get two witnesses…’ It is this combination of dedication to one God, plus practical instruction, that makes the Koran unique.[2


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