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Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?
Posted: 12 November 2013 02:01 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Care to compare the Jesus you know to the one I know?

I have been asked to do an O P showing my beliefs and have written a nutshell view to fill that request.
 
I was a skeptic till the age of 39. I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake and that makes me as hated by Christians today as the ancient Gnostics that Constantine had the Christians kill when he bought the Catholic Church.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read’st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of the O. T. God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.

This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness or what I call; the Godhead.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. It does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have exaggerated tribal mentalities and poor morals as they have developed a double standard to be able to stomach their God.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to ignore whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar of excellence and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Since then, I have tried to collect information that would help any that believe that apotheosis is possible, generally not Christians,—- as they do not believe in the mythical esoteric Jesus that I believe in and churches do not dare teach it.

This first clip gives the theological and philosophical interpretation of what Jesus taught and the second clip show what I think is a close representation of the method that helped me push my apotheosis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

Basically, the usual Christian Jesus is their hero and savior while my version demand that man himself steps up to the plate and save himself.

Which version do you think is more moral and deserving of praise and why?
Regards
DL

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Posted: 13 November 2013 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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Well, to your last question, your theology sounds better than most Christians. Mainly because you are thinking about how to be better, rather than believing you have found an answer. Also I like the parts about God not interacting with this world and our destiny being in our hands. You don’t say much about Jesus, so I assume you are using God and Jesus interchangeably.

I find it paradoxical that you include “know” in the title of the post but then talk about a God who provided you only with a revelation that you don’t need him. I don’t see why you would “search for God” when you also say we need to figure out morality for ourselves. What is it you are searching for?

You threw the word “mythical” in there, but used it in some way I don’t understand. Jesus, to me, is a character in a book. The character is confronting other not real characters, some of whom happen to match up with names of historical figures. Those names give us clues to what the Jesus character is trying to say. I think he is saying, think for yourself, stop trying to figure out a formula for life from some old scripture, obey the laws of wherever you are but seek a higher moral standard.

At the end of the book of Mark, he dies, period. The message there is, go home, live well, do good, the search for God is over, it’s up to you now.

(I won’t be able to watch the videos until later)

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Posted: 14 November 2013 07:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Lausten - 13 November 2013 07:38 AM

Well, to your last question, your theology sounds better than most Christians. Mainly because you are thinking about how to be better, rather than believing you have found an answer. Also I like the parts about God not interacting with this world and our destiny being in our hands. You don’t say much about Jesus, so I assume you are using God and Jesus interchangeably.

Indeed I was. I would have just said spiritual guide or some other label but used Jesus because he is a known entity to some and a mythical God/man to most.

I find it paradoxical that you include “know” in the title of the post but then talk about a God who provided you only with a revelation that you don’t need him. I don’t see why you would “search for God” when you also say we need to figure out morality for ourselves. What is it you are searching for?

You named it and to me it is the most important part of our lives if as Socrates says, our greatest work is to purify our own characters. Morals. I just seek the highest ideals in morals.

This guy has the right idea in naming God but then he himself falls into Idol worship. Strange how some do not recognize their own bias.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SkZg1ZflpJs

You threw the word “mythical” in there, but used it in some way I don’t understand. Jesus, to me, is a character in a book. The character is confronting other not real characters, some of whom happen to match up with names of historical figures. Those names give us clues to what the Jesus character is trying to say. I think he is saying, think for yourself, stop trying to figure out a formula for life from some old scripture, obey the laws of wherever you are but seek a higher moral standard.

Perfect. And when we think we have the ideal, we should set it down, raise the bar of our excellence and seek further. That is evolution of spirituality and philosophy.

At the end of the book of Mark, he dies, period. The message there is, go home, live well, do good, the search for God is over, it’s up to you now.

Yes but your,—- up to you, means seek further.

(I won’t be able to watch the videos until later)

I look forward to your critique.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 14 November 2013 07:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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Yeah, I get it, morals. But why do you need a supreme being somewhere to make that any more valuable or credible?

The Alan Watts video was okay. But, he says Christ was “sent” to teach us. Sent from where, how?  He refers back to the OT and mystics of the past to justify the teachings, but that’s just justifying nonsense with nonsense. He correctly points out that any monarchy type religion will be at odds with a republic/democracy, but tries to change that to a democratic religion, saying the monarchy types are “freak religions”. This may be true if you look back at polytheistic religions that have failed in the past, but certainly not true if you look at the 3 major religions that have survived. So, you can work backwards to a failed model, or you can look at why they failed and not make that mistake again.

The Hidden Meanings one was too long and was just cherry picking things he liked, applying his interpretation and claiming that was the “real” interpretation. Everybody does that.  It’s practically the definition of theology.

The poetry guy is an idiot. I’m not going to listen to 5 minutes of some 20 something telling me what I think and what I should think. I’m sure he’s great for reaching troubled teens, but I’m a little past that.

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Posted: 14 November 2013 09:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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Lausten - 14 November 2013 07:56 AM

Yeah, I get it, morals. But why do you need a supreme being somewhere to make that any more valuable or credible?

The Alan Watts video was okay. But, he says Christ was “sent” to teach us. Sent from where, how?  He refers back to the OT and mystics of the past to justify the teachings, but that’s just justifying nonsense with nonsense. He correctly points out that any monarchy type religion will be at odds with a republic/democracy, but tries to change that to a democratic religion, saying the monarchy types are “freak religions”. This may be true if you look back at polytheistic religions that have failed in the past, but certainly not true if you look at the 3 major religions that have survived. So, you can work backwards to a failed model, or you can look at why they failed and not make that mistake again.

The Hidden Meanings one was too long and was just cherry picking things he liked, applying his interpretation and claiming that was the “real” interpretation. Everybody does that.  It’s practically the definition of theology.

The poetry guy is an idiot. I’m not going to listen to 5 minutes of some 20 something telling me what I think and what I should think. I’m sure he’s great for reaching troubled teens, but I’m a little past that.


To your first. I covered that in the O P.
“My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.”

You are the supreme being to yourself. Who but you can make ypou voluntarily do anything. No man or God can.


“The Alan Watts video was okay. But, he says Christ was “sent” to teach us. Sent from where, how?”

Basically your own subconscious. In esoteric terms, Jesus is you. But if you do not recognize that you have a spiritual side and seek a higher ideal, you will not understand the ideas esoteric thinking give.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Jesus was basically chastising religious or spiritual people of his day for not seeking God within themselves and if you do not think you have a spiritual side then you too will ignore what he said. Or what the scribes out in his mouth would be a better way of saying it.

Jesus is just an archetype of every man.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 14 November 2013 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Yeah okay. Your way is no longer better than any other. You have just changed the location of what I am supposed to be searching for, but you can still tell me I’m doing it wrong. You can still claim that you have found something “hidden”, even though you find it in a book that’s been translated and copied all over the world. In some ways it’s even more cruel than telling someone to meditate or fast or read the Bible in ancient Greek or whatever spiritual leaders of the past might have done. Now, you can simply say, “look within”, and if I don’t match up with what you’re saying, you can tell me to look in some different way, then quote some scripture and say “now try”. You just put the power of the anointed priests, the ones who used to have to speak in Latin, into the hands of everyone. And just like those old priests, you got nuthin’.

What we have is the power to communicate with each other, respect each other, learn from each other. We can observe and reflect. We’ve been looking for evidence of a spirit for a long time and the results have not changed. What’s changed is, more people can verify that their results are correct. One person, claiming to be special, to have special knowledge, is going to find themselves isolated rather than attracting a following.

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Posted: 14 November 2013 01:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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Lausten - 14 November 2013 12:37 PM

Yeah okay. Your way is no longer better than any other. You have just changed the location of what I am supposed to be searching for, but you can still tell me I’m doing it wrong. You can still claim that you have found something “hidden”, even though you find it in a book that’s been translated and copied all over the world. In some ways it’s even more cruel than telling someone to meditate or fast or read the Bible in ancient Greek or whatever spiritual leaders of the past might have done. Now, you can simply say, “look within”, and if I don’t match up with what you’re saying, you can tell me to look in some different way, then quote some scripture and say “now try”. You just put the power of the anointed priests, the ones who used to have to speak in Latin, into the hands of everyone. And just like those old priests, you got nuthin’.

What we have is the power to communicate with each other, respect each other, learn from each other. We can observe and reflect. We’ve been looking for evidence of a spirit for a long time and the results have not changed. What’s changed is, more people can verify that their results are correct. One person, claiming to be special, to have special knowledge, is going to find themselves isolated rather than attracting a following.

You have two choices in whose ideals and ideas you will live by.

To go by what others say or go by what your internal feelings and thoughts say.

Seems you would rather go by what others say.

What can I say. Go ahead.

Regards
DL

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Posted: 14 November 2013 01:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Greatest I am - 14 November 2013 01:16 PM

You have two choices in whose ideals and ideas you will live by.

To go by what others say or go by what your internal feelings and thoughts say.

Seems you would rather go by what others say.

What can I say. Go ahead.

Regards
DL

A false choice. One that would be presented by someone who does not want to listen to others. How can you live by the Golden Rule if you don’t know what others want? Where do you think your internal feelings come from? Does nurture play no part in your nature? Has no one influenced you ever? Were you awash in a sea of uncertainty and mystery until you had your apotheosis?

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Posted: 17 November 2013 02:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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When talking about God, it’s best to talk about evidence rather than proof.  The point where evidence becomes proof depends on the person. 

There is plenty of evidence for God.  Experiential evidence is one kind.  Other kinds include cosmological, teleological, ontological, axiological, and historical.  I wish I had time to elaborate on all of them, but I don’t.  Therefore, I recommend going to pleaseconvinceme.com for an explanation of each by an ex-atheist who, as a cold case homicide detective, applied the same methodology he used on the job to the evidence for God and found it too compelling to resist.

The next step is figuring out who the real Jesus is.  He isn’t the Gnostic Jesus and he isn’t the Mormon Jesus or the Jehovah Witness’ Jesus or the Jesus that Muslims accept. 

The real Jesus is the one found in the Holy Bible.  He is the second person of the Triune Godhead.  The Trinity is one God existing in three persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.  All three are identical in essence and attributes.  They are all eternal.  Therefore, Jesus has always existed.

Jesus came to earth as God Incarnate, being 100 per cent man AND 100 per cent God at the same time.  Why did he come?

God cannot have sin in his presence.  All humans are born with sin natures.  We cannot change our sin natures no matter how hard we try.  Therefore, we cannot enter God’s presence.

In the Old Testament, people sacrificed animals to cover their sins, but animals sacrifices didn’t remove the sins.  Only the sacrifice of a human on behalf of humankind could do that.  But just as animal sacrifices had to be unblemished, so, too, did the human one.  That means he had to be sin-free.  But, as I said, no man is without sin.

Enter Jesus who, as God, was without sin and, as man, was able to die in our place.  This is why Christ and Christ alone saves because he is the only being who existed as both man and God.  Other religions are about man attempting to earn his way into heaven, but it can’t be done.  God knew this and sent Christ.  Christ gives us his righteousness in exchange for our sins when we accept his gift of salvation.

The Gnostics got it wrong when they saw Jesus as spirit only.  If he were not a man in flesh he could not have died in our place.  If he were not physically raised from the dead, he could not have defeated death.  If his physical body wasn’t raised, our physical bodies could not be raised. 

For more information, see:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-gnosticism.html

http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain18.htm

[ Edited: 17 November 2013 02:53 PM by Overcomer ]
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Posted: 17 November 2013 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
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As soon as I hear or read the word “apotheosis” my eyes glaze over. I know it’s all downhill from then on.

Lois

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Posted: 17 November 2013 03:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
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LOL!  Yes, Lois.  It’s a bit off-putting!  The idea that a person can be exalted to a position of the divine is a bit hard to take.  It’s idolatry, pure and simple, and, therefore, an affront to God.

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Posted: 17 November 2013 03:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
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Overcomer - 17 November 2013 02:50 PM

God cannot have sin in his presence.  All humans are born with sin natures.  We cannot change our sin natures no matter how hard we try.  Therefore, we cannot enter God’s presence.

Welcome to the forum Overcomer. Always fun to see someone repeat the same old stuff as if it is true and as if it explains anything. Good to know that you disagree with some of the same people I do, but that doesn’t bring us any closer to agreement. Had to chuckle a little when you said Jesus is the Jesus you find in the Bible. Where else would I look? Non-canonical works shed little or no light. Commentary by theologians just makes it worse.

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Posted: 17 November 2013 05:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
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My mother used to read books she checked out of the library to me when I was a small child.  One of my heros was Zeus. 

Care to compare the Zeus you know to the one I know?  There’s plenty of evidence that I see repeated every time I see him throw lightning bolts during a storm. 
====
Sorry, but there is NO evidence of the existence of any god including jesus.  You might say my mother was reading from a book of fairytales, but that also describes the bible. 

If you believe in a god, be happy and recognize that you do so by faith; don’t bother trying to cobble up “evidence” especially by quoting an antique book that has been re-written and revised so many times with each translation and updated edition to match the desires and motivations of those in power at the time of such change. 

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Posted: 18 November 2013 12:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]
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Lausten - 14 November 2013 01:51 PM
Greatest I am - 14 November 2013 01:16 PM

You have two choices in whose ideals and ideas you will live by.

To go by what others say or go by what your internal feelings and thoughts say.

Seems you would rather go by what others say.

What can I say. Go ahead.

Regards
DL

A false choice. One that would be presented by someone who does not want to listen to others. How can you live by the Golden Rule if you don’t know what others want? Where do you think your internal feelings come from? Does nurture play no part in your nature? Has no one influenced you ever? Were you awash in a sea of uncertainty and mystery until you had your apotheosis?

No I was not. And sure we all learn from others but the lesson is not complete till the law we come up with is written on our hearts.

We do learn quite a bit from nurture but should not forget nature.

I am just saying that we also have our own thoughts and feelings to consider before just accepting what others are on about.

Which of this babies peers taught it?

None. was all instinct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Regards
DL

[ Edited: 18 November 2013 12:35 PM by Greatest I am ]
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Posted: 18 November 2013 12:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]
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Oops

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Posted: 18 November 2013 12:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]
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Overcomer - 17 November 2013 02:50 PM

When talking about God, it’s best to talk about evidence rather than proof.  The point where evidence becomes proof depends on the person. 

There is plenty of evidence for God. 

Only to fools.

All God’s should be thought of as the myths most are unless apotheosis finds the seeker. If not that seeking or hope should never go to faith. Faith without facts is for fools.

Regards
DL

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