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Alternative Medicine and secularism
Posted: 17 July 2017 09:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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Write4U - 25 June 2017 05:55 PM
LoisL - 27 April 2017 09:15 PM

There is only one kind of medicine. “Alternative” medicine is fake medicine. Anything that hasn’t been tested and validated as effective is not medicine.

While I agree with you that alternative medicine proponents tend to exaggerate the benefits of natural medicinal benefits in many cases, I disagree with your assessment that only laboratory tests can prove the general benefits of natural medicines.

Thousands of years of practical application do count as a long term tests of the effectiveness of herbal medicines and salves. Today we put medicines on the market which prove to be disastrous in the long term. A clear example is the marketing of Thalidomide, without sufficient long term testing. The use of DDT for pest control turned out to be more harmful to humans than for pest control.

Some ~60% of all currently used artificially manipulated medicines are or were based on purified plant extracts. Plants with medicinal properties do exist in nature and not all “medicine men” were charlatans, but possessed great knowledge of the medicinal properties of plants and their effective uses for many diseases and they did so for free. Some of them studied and tested plants for decades and had apprentices, who would study with them so that they could pass on the age-old knowledge of natural medicines.

In those days, the title medicine man was held in high esteem.  Why does China, now a modern country, still use natural medicines. Are they stupid or snake-oil salesmen?

The modern “snake-oil” salesmen came much later, when you had to start paying for medicines and the concept of greed became part of the equation in health care.

Comes to mind the current opioid addiction, which is actually acquired from the carelessly applied prescription.  IMO, the extraction and purification of naturally occurring “medicines” has caused more harm than any medicine man from 2000 years ago ever did in many cases.

To dismiss the knowledge acquired from millenia of effective uses of naturally occurring medicines is hasty and somewhat prejudicial, IMO.

All they have to do is prove their remedies work under laboratory conditions. If they can’t do that the remedy does not deserve to be considered legitimate medicine. Period. End of discussion.


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Posted: 17 July 2017 10:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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LoisL said,
All they have to do is prove their remedies work under laboratory conditions. If they can’t do that the remedy does not deserve to be considered legitimate medicine. Period. End of discussion.

Not end of discussion.

If the government forbids laboratory testing, it cannot be considered medicine? Note I left out the word “legitimate”, because that is meaningless except for patent and taxation purposes.

And what does “under laboratory conditions” mean anyway?  Is nature not the greatest laboratory which can test medicinal or poisonous properties over millennia?  Did a laboratory come up with the terms “Deadly Nightshade”, “Bushman’s Poison”,
“Bishop’s weed”?

Who labeled these poisonous plants? Laboratories?  Are the Chinese people stupid? They still use lots of medicinal herbs. Are African bushmen stupid. They have no laboratories or fancy Latin names for beneficial or harmful chemicals contained in plants, barks, roots, seeds, flowers. But they know what not to eat!  And that is sufficient in itself.

Should the early Egyptians not have used Garlic to ward of “bad spirits”. They knew it was “good medicine”.
In fact, the earliest recorded labor strike was over a cut-back of garlic rations during the period of Pyramid building.

In the US, Garlic was once classified as a legitimate medicine. But you can grow it yourself, so there were no taxes to be gained.

I make no claim that all the reputed medicinal properties of Garlic are true, but thousands of years of use for its beneficial properties cannot be denied.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3249897/

[ Edited: 18 July 2017 04:02 AM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 18 July 2017 05:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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Write4U - 17 July 2017 10:20 PM

LoisL said,
All they have to do is prove their remedies work under laboratory conditions. If they can’t do that the remedy does not deserve to be considered legitimate medicine. Period. End of discussion.

Not end of discussion.

If the government forbids laboratory testing, it cannot be considered medicine? Note I left out the word “legitimate”, because that is meaningless except for patent and taxation purposes.

And what does “under laboratory conditions” mean anyway?  Is nature not the greatest laboratory which can test medicinal or poisonous properties over millennia?  Did a laboratory come up with the terms “Deadly Nightshade”, “Bushman’s Poison”,
“Bishop’s weed”?

Who labeled these poisonous plants? Laboratories?  Are the Chinese people stupid? They still use lots of medicinal herbs. Are African bushmen stupid. They have no laboratories or fancy Latin names for beneficial or harmful chemicals contained in plants, barks, roots, seeds, flowers. But they know what not to eat!  And that is sufficient in itself.

Should the early Egyptians not have used Garlic to ward of “bad spirits”. They knew it was “good medicine”.
In fact, the earliest recorded labor strike was over a cut-back of garlic rations during the period of Pyramid building.

In the US, Garlic was once classified as a legitimate medicine. But you can grow it yourself, so there were no taxes to be gained.

I make no claim that all the reputed medicinal properties of Garlic are true, but thousands of years of use for its beneficial properties cannot be denied.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3249897/

It can be denied if it can’t be shown by testing under laboratory conditions to be beneficial, no matter how many people proclaim it.

When has a Westen government ever forbidden laboratory testing? Name an instance.

Since you asked, and apparently don’t know, “under laboratory conditions” means by critical thinking standards that have resulted in a system of proving claims to be effective or ineffective by following the rule oif logic, rational thought and the scientific method. If you don’t understand these things we can’t help you. Take some basic courses in logic and critical thinking.

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Posted: 18 July 2017 09:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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LoisL - 18 July 2017 05:25 PM
Write4U - 17 July 2017 10:20 PM

LoisL said,
All they have to do is prove their remedies work under laboratory conditions. If they can’t do that the remedy does not deserve to be considered legitimate medicine. Period. End of discussion.

Not end of discussion.

If the government forbids laboratory testing, it cannot be considered medicine? Note I left out the word “legitimate”, because that is meaningless except for patent and taxation purposes.

And what does “under laboratory conditions” mean anyway?  Is nature not the greatest laboratory which can test medicinal or poisonous properties over millennia?  Did a laboratory come up with the terms “Deadly Nightshade”, “Bushman’s Poison”,
“Bishop’s weed”?

Who labeled these poisonous plants? Laboratories?  Are the Chinese people stupid? They still use lots of medicinal herbs. Are African bushmen stupid. They have no laboratories or fancy Latin names for beneficial or harmful chemicals contained in plants, barks, roots, seeds, flowers. But they know what not to eat!  And that is sufficient in itself.

Should the early Egyptians not have used Garlic to ward of “bad spirits”. They knew it was “good medicine”.
In fact, the earliest recorded labor strike was over a cut-back of garlic rations during the period of Pyramid building.

In the US, Garlic was once classified as a legitimate medicine. But you can grow it yourself, so there were no taxes to be gained.

I make no claim that all the reputed medicinal properties of Garlic are true, but thousands of years of use for its beneficial properties cannot be denied.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3249897/

It can be denied if it can’t be shown by testing under laboratory conditions to be beneficial, no matter how many people proclaim it.

When has a Westen government ever forbidden laboratory testing? Name an instance.

Since you asked, and apparently don’t know, “under laboratory conditions” means by critical thinking standards that have resulted in a system of proving claims to be effective or ineffective by following the rule oif logic, rational thought and the scientific method. If you don’t understand these things we can’t help you. Take some basic courses in logic and critical thinking.

  As I said before, I have no objection to manufactured medicines, which can then be precisely controlled for dosage etc. It’s a good thing. My wife is a nurse and have worked In medical billing, so I am somewhat familiar with the subject.

As to garlic, it has been tested and it does have real medicinal values for a variety of treatments. This is why it was once a recognized medicine. But people can grow it in their gardens for their own use as a spice or a healthy member of the onion family.

But such is not the case for the medicinal properties of marijuana, which has been conveniently lumped in with Heroin and other highly addictive opioid drugs. Even laboratory testing is still forbidden, as far as I know.

THC is not an opioid, in fact

Medical marijuana offers a unique treatment opportunity for patients who are suffering from opiate dependence.

https://www.marijuanadoctors.com/content/ailments/view/50/opiate-dependence

And several states have recognized that Jane does have medicinal properties and there are medical records from individual physicians not for its THC content but several other chemicals which are effective in combating epilepsy, autism and the effects of chemotherapy.

There are several strains of medicinal marijuana which has been bred for very low THC content but high in those other proven effective medicinal chemicals.  It is useless for recreational purposes. 

Similar to industrial Hemp, which is one of the most ecofriendly crops with many industrial uses. Many countries allow growing it and use it effectively for many purposes, but is useless as a drug.

Some models of BMW use hemp as the main ingredient for panels. It has extremely long fibers and make it ideal for high stress industrial use. President Washington had a thriving hemp crop and the first draft of the Constitution was written on hemp paper. There is an ironic twist in that.

As to high THC recreational use of the sativa plant, several states such as Colorado, Washington, California, and recently Nevada have come to realize that it is a high value crop, and not physically addictive, such as prescription opioids.  Thus, instead of spending millions dollars of tax moneys to combat marijuana, they now have substantial tax revenues from the strictly controlled sale of recreational pot.  Nevada ran out of supplies in a few weeks and had to buy additional supplies from Colorado, which has now a thriving sativa industry that is less harmful, but just as profitable as tobacco and alcohol.

But still the Feds have forbidden official FDA testing of marijuana for all its beneficial properties and possible dangers associated with chronic use. But it has been testing it secretly in one of the southern States for years.

I am sure this is why the Feds are not enforcing the prohibition of Marijuana in those states which have legalized it.

Once you actually do some real research of available medical (sparse as it may be) records, you will come to recognize that its benefits far outweigh its potential harms, such as nicotine and alcohol addiction.  I am sure that within the next ten years marijuana will be reclassified and made a legal recreational drug. It will become a great source of tax revenue and save millions of dollars of taxes to combat its unstoppable use.

And the kicker is that marijuana use does NOT lead to using more dangerous drugs.  And there has never been a case that someone died from a purely marijuana overdose. Another beneficial side-effect is that it tends to mellow rather than stimulate as with cocaine.

I mentioned before that Holland makes marijuana available to elderly people in long term care facilities, to help combat depression and rheumatic pains. In fact Holland has a yearly fair by marijuana growers to offer testing for its many interesting but harmless side-effects. In Amsterdam there are several bistros where instead o a beer or wine, you can order a Jay.

Its reputation as a bad drug (reefer madness) is highly exaggerated and can be compared to Trumpian truths.

I have no axe to grind here, and of course I strongly oppose driving under the influence of any drug, including marijuana.

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Posted: 27 November 2017 05:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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LoisL - 27 April 2017 09:15 PM

There is only one kind of medicine. “Alternative” medicine is fake medicine. Anything that hasn’t been tested and validated as effective is not medicine.

Food has been tested as Effective. Yet to a conventional doctor or pharmacist, that would be considered “alternative medicine”.
I give you an example.  about 2 years ago, I found out that I had a high blood pressure. I changed my food. Nothing drastic. Committed to 12 weeks of 45 mns a day of exercise, mostly weight lift.  After the 12 weeks my blood pressure went down by 19 points!! THIS IS A TRUE STORY. Every week I check it and an average of 2 points dropped. You go to a doctor and he will glue you with some garbage that was not sufficiently tested. Not only that, they’d forbid you from quitting the treatment on your own just because you are not a doctor. But they conveniently forget that you are the body owner, and as such you know that body better than them. Or they do because there is no money gain for them in you doing what I did.
In last October, my Blood pressure went up again as I got to like too much cheese, salt, meat and such. I got to a point where I did not feel well at all. Checked it, it was the problem. A quick internet search got me that I need to eat red cabbage, beet, green tea and whatever that is in Bananas with garlic.  Plus I needed to lower sodium intake. Last 2 knew about from before. I did few salads with those veggies and in a single month it went down by 10 points. I didn’t even try hard. I felt much better within a week.  My plan now is to do a 6 months of that to level it right once and for all.
If the problem the person suffers from was caused by food, then food should be the solution and not medication. This is simple arithmetic. I’ve done it many times in the past and it worked every time.

[ Edited: 27 November 2017 05:26 PM by InBetween ]
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Posted: 27 November 2017 06:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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InBetween - 27 November 2017 05:22 PM
LoisL - 27 April 2017 09:15 PM

There is only one kind of medicine. “Alternative” medicine is fake medicine. Anything that hasn’t been tested and validated as effective is not medicine.

Food has been tested as Effective. Yet to a conventional doctor or pharmacist, that would be considered “alternative medicine”.
I give you an example.  about 2 years ago, I found out that I had a high blood pressure. I changed my food. Nothing drastic. Committed to 12 weeks of 45 mns a day of exercise, mostly weight lift.  After the 12 weeks my blood pressure went down by 19 points!! THIS IS A TRUE STORY. Every week I check it and an average of 2 points dropped. You go to a doctor and he will glue you with some garbage that was not sufficiently tested. Not only that, they’d forbid you from quitting the treatment on your own just because you are not a doctor. But they conveniently forget that you are the body owner, and as such you know that body better than them. Or they do because there is no money gain for them in you doing what I did.
In last October, my Blood pressure went up again as I got to like too much cheese, salt, meat and such. I got to a point where I did not feel well at all. Checked it, it was the problem. A quick internet search got me that I need to eat red cabbage, beet, green tea and whatever that is in Bananas with garlic.  Plus I needed to lower sodium intake. Last 2 knew about from before. I did few salads with those veggies and in a single month it went down by 10 points. I didn’t even try hard. I felt much better within a week.  My plan now is to do a 6 months of that to level it right once and for all.
If the problem the person suffers from was caused by food, then food should be the solution and not medication. This is simple arithmetic. I’ve done it many times in the past and it worked every time.

Interestingly, I just read that using daily mouthwash may contribute to diabetes, by killing bacteria in your saliva which affects your natural production of insulin.

And a Ted talk on cell aging. https://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_blackburn_the_science_of_cells_that_never_get_old?utm_source=newsletter_daily&utm_campaign=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_content=image__2017-11-27

[ Edited: 27 November 2017 06:31 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 28 November 2017 06:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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Write4U - 27 November 2017 06:23 PM

 
Interestingly, I just read that using daily mouthwash may contribute to diabetes, by killing bacteria in your saliva which affects your natural production of insulin.

thank you, and that’s the kind of info that I would consider Quaky. I use Listerine all the time. I got diabetes about 5 years ago, but it was because I ate sugar like a snake and not because I used Listerine. And that tooo I reversed. Had a gym membership at the time. Used Power antioxidants, quit sugar cold turkey and used the treadmill 60 mns daily. Since I have a spine injury, I didn’t even have to run, I just walked @ the rate of 5 miles an hour (b4 injury I was long distance runner), so by the time I got off the carpet, I was totally soaked. The diabetes symptoms started to draw out only 2 days after I started the power antioxidants. After 2 weeks they simply disappeared. Lost 5 pounds of fat in 5 weeks, and the rest is history. Did not quit my Listerine. But the Diabetes went away to never come back.

And a Ted talk on cell aging. https://www.ted.com/talks/elizabeth_blackburn_the_science_of_cells_that_never_get_old?utm_source=newsletter_daily&utm_campaign=daily&utm_medium=email&utm_content=image__2017-11-27

I really liked her. She made me want to listen to her for ever. She’d also make a good Hypnotherapist. Thank you so much :coolsmile: . Of course we do have power over how our body reacts to different things.

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Posted: 05 December 2017 04:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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Lois said;
When has a Westen government ever forbidden laboratory testing? Name an instance.

marijuana testing.

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Posted: 05 December 2017 04:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Write4U - 05 December 2017 04:08 AM

Lois said;
When has a Westen government ever forbidden laboratory testing? Name an instance.

marijuana testing.

I am not mari fan, but I relate as they ALSO don’t like to test the effectiveness of how simple vegetables, fruits, seeds, herbs etc. have the ability to cure this or that. And why? Because they cannot apply for a patent to appropriate those basic ingredients as they have not invented them in a lab and therefore the money making potential here is extremely weak.

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Posted: 08 December 2017 02:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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InBetween said,

I am not mari fan, but I relate as they ALSO don’t like to test the effectiveness of how simple vegetables, fruits, seeds, herbs etc. have the ability to cure this or that. And why? Because they cannot apply for a patent to appropriate those basic ingredients as they have not invented them in a lab and therefore the money making potential here is extremely weak.

I understand the fear of any psycho active drugs.  But CBD is also derived from the sativa plant bred for low THC but high CBD.

WHAT IS CBD (CANNABIDIOL) HEMP OIL?
What are the Effects of CBD?

CBD interacts with the body through the endogenous cannabinoid system (ECS) or endocannabinoid system. First discovered in the late 1980’s, the endocannabinoid system regulates the body’s homeostasis, or general state of balance, impacting such functions as mood, sleep, appetite, hormone regulation, and pain and immune response. Like an acrobat on a highwire, as the environment around us impacts our normal balance, the endocannabinoid system “corrects” by mediating our body’s reaction to keep us level.

What is the Endocannabinoid System?

Found in all mammals, the endocannabinoid system is found in all mammals, and is made up of millions of cannabinoid receptor sites located primarily throughout the brain and central nervous system (CB1 receptors) and immune system (CB2 receptors) that act in neural communication. However, the endocannabinoid system doesn’t simply rely on plant-based cannabinoids, or phytocannabinoids. The human body is capable of making its own cannabinoids. Similar in function to CBD, Anandamide and 2-AG are the body’s own endocannabinoids, created to control communication between cells, mediating your body’s functions.

It’s clear that the endocannabinoid system is one of the most important regulatory systems in the human body, but most people do very little to support the health of this system, because cannabinoids have not been part of the average diet.

What are the Health Benefits of CBD?

In addition to positively affecting the endocannabinoid system, CBD has been the focus of more than 23,000 published studies about cannabinoids in relation to various medical indications including anxiety, epilepsy, inflammation, cancer and chronic pain to name few. For a more comprehensive look at these and other studies, visit our medical research and education page.

https://www.medicalmarijuanainc.com/what-is-cbd-hemp-oil/

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Posted: 08 December 2017 02:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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p.s. I have no axe to grind here.  Just sharing some of the interesting articles I try to familiarize myself with.

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Posted: 08 December 2017 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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I understand and read in the past that it did a tremendous good for cancer and aids patients as far as helping them manage pain, but I could never relate to its benefits as some would use that as excuse just so they could get it to get hammered when they are not suffering in any way. So one has to be careful.

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Posted: 16 December 2017 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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InBetween - 08 December 2017 03:20 PM

I understand and read in the past that it did a tremendous good for cancer and aids patients as far as helping them manage pain, but I could never relate to its benefits as some would use that as excuse just so they could get it to get hammered when they are not suffering in any way. So one has to be careful.

I agree heartely, but there is a big difference between the cannabinoid CBD (which doesn’t get you high) and THC (which does).

Medical marijuana is just a purely natural pain killer and just like any other prescription should be taken as prescribed.
The benefit is that neither is “addictive’ in a physical sense, though THC can create a psychological dependence, but no more so than chocolate, other sweets, or coffee, none of which create real physical withdrawal symptoms, when you stop.

The greatest source of obesity and diabetis is sugar.  No one considers sugar a dangerous drug, which it is. As long as you don’t show any adverse symptoms of sugar caused illnesses, no doctor will tell you to restrict you intake.

So far CBD has shown no adverse effects of any kind and because it is not psychoactive there is no reason to worry of using an excuse of pain to obtain CBD cannabinoid. It doesn’t affect your well being except as used to control pain or epilepsy or autism, but does not give you a high.

It is more benign than aspirin, which is why prescriptions for aspirin for daily intake as a bloodthineer has been reduced from 160 mg, the adult dosage for occasional pain, to 80mg (baby dosage) for daily use, because it is an acid wich damages the stomach lining.

[ Edited: 16 December 2017 02:52 PM by Write4U ]
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Posted: 16 December 2017 02:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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LoisL - 18 July 2017 05:25 PM
Write4U - 17 July 2017 10:20 PM

LoisL said,
All they have to do is prove their remedies work under laboratory conditions. If they can’t do that the remedy does not deserve to be considered legitimate medicine. Period. End of discussion.

Not end of discussion.

If the government forbids laboratory testing, it cannot be considered medicine? Note I left out the word “legitimate”, because that is meaningless except for patent and taxation purposes.

And what does “under laboratory conditions” mean anyway?  Is nature not the greatest laboratory which can test medicinal or poisonous properties over millennia?  Did a laboratory come up with the terms “Deadly Nightshade”, “Bushman’s Poison”,
“Bishop’s weed”?

Who labeled these poisonous plants? Laboratories?  Are the Chinese people stupid? They still use lots of medicinal herbs. Are African bushmen stupid. They have no laboratories or fancy Latin names for beneficial or harmful chemicals contained in plants, barks, roots, seeds, flowers. But they know what not to eat!  And that is sufficient in itself.

Should the early Egyptians not have used Garlic to ward of “bad spirits”. They knew it was “good medicine”.
In fact, the earliest recorded labor strike was over a cut-back of garlic rations during the period of Pyramid building.

In the US, Garlic was once classified as a legitimate medicine. But you can grow it yourself, so there were no taxes to be gained.

I make no claim that all the reputed medicinal properties of Garlic are true, but thousands of years of use for its beneficial properties cannot be denied.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3249897/

It can be denied if it can’t be shown by testing under laboratory conditions to be beneficial, no matter how many people proclaim it.

When has a Westen government ever forbidden laboratory testing? Name an instance.

Since you asked, and apparently don’t know, “under laboratory conditions” means by critical thinking standards that have resulted in a system of proving claims to be effective or ineffective by following the rule oif logic, rational thought and the scientific method. If you don’t understand these things we can’t help you. Take some basic courses in logic and critical thinking.

Yes opioids are very effective under labaratory testing.  Why do you think we are dealing with a serious opioid addiction today? because it was proven effective in labaratory tests?  Who would have thought that its long term use has now produced a crisis?

It’s very labaratory proven effectiveness which is responsible for this terrible situation, even if taken as prescribed.

The problem is that effective short term labaratory tests tell us nothing about long term effects. This is one of the reasons I always tell my doctor that I want the absolute minimal dosage of any artificially created drug, and rathere have to increase dosage than starting with a “normal” dosage and then having to “cut back”, because of unintentional side effects.

Coumadin is one such drug which requires weekly testing, because it can be deadly, as I discovered and spent a whole month in intensive care, because of internal bleeding and there was no doctor availble to test me. My regular doctor was on vacation and every other physician was fully booked and was not available. It took 2 weeks for me to nearly die, from internal bleeding.

Be skeptical of natural medicines (which if ineffective don’t necessarily kill you), but be just as skeptical of artificial medicines ( which may be too effective and can kill you).  A general statement that a labaratory tested medicine is proven effective is no quarantee that it’s sideffects are not dangerous. Why do we now have a booklet with every modern drug for this or that, which warn of unintended but possible side effects.
Watch any tv advertisement for a new wonder drug and you’ll always find a long list of warnings. I am skeptical of all medicines, natural or laboratory tested.

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Posted: 16 December 2017 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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InBetween - 05 December 2017 04:37 PM
Write4U - 05 December 2017 04:08 AM

Lois said;
When has a Westen government ever forbidden laboratory testing? Name an instance.

marijuana testing.

I am not mari fan, but I relate as they ALSO don’t like to test the effectiveness of how simple vegetables, fruits, seeds, herbs etc. have the ability to cure this or that. And why? Because they cannot apply for a patent to appropriate those basic ingredients as they have not invented them in a lab and therefore the money making potential here is extremely weak.

You have identified the problem. It is not always the researchers who are responsible, but the companies they work for who are in competiton to bring medicines to the “market”, and push for instant results.
Codeine has instant results, but long term use leads to addiction. But hey it was laboratory tested and therefore effective, but is it safe should be the a priori question, IMO.

Who would have thought that using just plain old Talcum powder could cause cancer in women?

[ Edited: 16 December 2017 02:56 PM by Write4U ]
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