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When will these gun-tragedies end in the USA?
Posted: 22 February 2018 02:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]
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LoisL - 18 February 2018 04:55 PM
Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 16 February 2018 04:26 PM

The tragedies come and are forgotten after a while; and, obviously, they keep repeating. Practically no one is safe in the USA, due to the easy availability of guns to people who should not have them. Isn’t the gun-crazy mindset the worst shame of the USA?

I had a little conversation today with a pro-gun friend on FB. His argument was that using cars (carelessly or criminally) can kill people. Should the country take cars off the streets? I responded by saying that he had missed a very important point. Cars are needed for a living - for transportation to wherever people need to go in an advanced nation. There is no such need for guns. A civilized nation can certainly live without everyone tottering guns. In fact, the gun right law (2nd Amendment to the Constitution) in the USA was put in place when the USA was mostly wild, a jungle, an uncivilized nation.

How would you address this menace in the USA? How would you console victim-families like the following?:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/victims-aunt-calls-action-not-prayers-shooting-225152005.html?soc_src=hl-viewer&soc_trk=fb

There is no consolation for the families, but what I would do is ban all guns.

But as long as we have right wing zealots in the country, we will have more such tragedies. They will never agree to any kind of gun control that is effective. They might agree to window dressing,as long as it doesn’t interfere with the availability of guns, any kind of guns, to anyone who wants them.

Yes, the senseless loss of innocent lives due to guns in the hands of mentally sick people would continue to be the worst shame of the USA for decades to come. The window-dressing jobs that can be imagined in the horizon would have only a limited impact. This country is surely not ready to do the right thing now - to call gun ownership a privilege that must be earned and maintained thorough serious mental health scrutiny; no nonsense of the gun-right (2nd Amendment).

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Posted: 22 February 2018 03:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]
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I think it’s easy to relate gun violence to mental illness because it’s obvious you’d have to be crazy to shoot up a bunch of strangers. Mental illness is not that simple.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/15/mass-shootings-mental-health-activists-warning-415598

But if that’s the legislation that can be passed, I’m all for stringent psych evals for every gun owner and gun buyer. Let’s do something.

I think large magazine bans, bump stock bans, no private sales are assault a good start.

Registration just seems obvious. Anyway. Have a nice day.

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Posted: 23 February 2018 12:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]
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The armed teacher’s biggest fear is “missing (the deranged shooter) and hitting a student.” Indeed, in a crowd comprising mostly students, the armed teacher/guard is more likely to kill innocent students than the would be killer.

Armed teacher’s fear? ‘Missing and hitting a student’

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-43172779/armed-teacher-s-fear-missing-and-hitting-a-student

The whole idea of making the schools warzones is sickening.

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Posted: 23 February 2018 02:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]
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Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 23 February 2018 12:48 PM

The armed teacher’s biggest fear is “missing (the deranged shooter) and hitting a student.” Indeed, in a crowd comprising mostly students, the armed teacher/guard is more likely to kill innocent students than the would be killer.

Armed teacher’s fear? ‘Missing and hitting a student’

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-43172779/armed-teacher-s-fear-missing-and-hitting-a-student

The whole idea of making the schools warzones is sickening.

It’s pure fantasy that teachers who’s main role is engaging with students in a trust relationship to teach and help socialize them are then going to immediately convert to highly proficient tactical teams to take down a shooter.

There was an armed deputy at the Florida high school and he would not go into the building where he heard shooting.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/22/stoneman-douglas-shooting-armed-guard-did-not-go-in

The armed deputy who was on campus at Marjory Stoneman Douglas high school when a gunman massacred 17 people stood outside the building as it occurred and did not go in to engage the shooter, the Broward County sheriff, Scott Israel, said on Thursday.

Deputy Scott Peterson, who was the school resource officer at Stoneman Douglas in Parkland, Florida, resigned from the department on Thursday after being told he would be suspended, Israel said.

By the time someone has decided to do something this despicable they no longer care about any life including their own. They will shoot everyone they see and are coming in prepared. As you say, any armed teacher would be more likely to hit students in the pandemonium an armed attack on a school would cause.

If the idiots now running America are going to keep refusing to accept that over 300 million guns in civilian hands and millions more added each year puts everyone in the US on the frontline of an ongoing civil war then the only thing that would work even marginally would be having tactical teams deployed at every school. And that would turn US schools into an even more violent warzone as you say.

Teachers are not tactical response teams and trying to turn them into one would destroy the trust relationship they need to do their job and possibly motivate even more borderline students to go postal.

This is a psychopaths response to critical social issues.

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Posted: 23 February 2018 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]
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The only way they are going to resolve this ongoing tragedy is real and effective gun control, not more window dressing. That means restricting or even banning certain classes of weapons and effective programs to get millions of guns out of the hands of civilians. There is simply no reason for there to be almost 1 gun for every American except the batshit crazy ideology of the lunatics who took over the NRA and the republican party decades ago.

Back in the 1920s and 1930s the NRA supported and help right gun control law to address the crisis posed by organized crime outgunning the police.

In the 1920s and 1930s, the NRA’s leaders helped write and lobby for the first federal gun control laws—the very kinds of laws that the modern NRA labels as the height of tryanny. The 17th Amendment outlawing alchohol became law in 1920 and was soon followed by the emergence of big city gangsters who outgunned the police by killing rivals with sawed-off shotguns and machine guns—today called automatic weapons.

In the early 1920s, the National Revolver Association—the NRA’s handgun training counterpart—proposed model legislation for states that included requiring a permit to carry a concealed weapon, adding five years to a prison sentence if a gun was used in a crime, and banning non-citizens from buying a handgun. They also proposed that gun dealers turn over sales records to police and created a one-day waiting period between buying a gun and getting it—two provisions that the NRA opposes today.

Now their “solution” is to put even more guns in the hands of civilians like teachers totally compromising their main task which it to teach students not engage in urban warfare.

Following what the NRA used to stand for before lunatics hijacked it, there should be a ban on assault rifles, there should be restrictions on handguns and there needs to be a national database and background check system THE ACTUALLY WORKS.

Same for high capacity magazines, the products the gun makers keep making sure that some Americans have an almost unlimited access to are basically designed for urban warfare to do the maximum amount of damage in the shortest time possible.

One more time for the terminally stupid…. the Las Vegas shooter used legally obtained weapons to kill 59 and wound 850 PEOPLE in less than 10 minutes.

Anyone who claims there is any gun control in America or that selling even more guns is either nuts or paid to say that.

Or possibly both like Wayne Lapierre…

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Posted: 23 February 2018 02:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]
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article for the above post

https://www.salon.com/2013/01/14/the_nra_once_supported_gun_control/

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Posted: 23 February 2018 07:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]
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The second amendment purists are so damn insane. A right to bear arms should be reasonable and moderated, not the damn wild west. They treat the second amendment like holy scripture it’s bizarre. More guns will not stop gun violence. It will only cause a larger body count not only though shootings but just accidents, unintentional shootings are surprisingly common.  As I said this is a social issue as much as a legal issue. Currently its almost impossible to stop the “lone wolf” mass shooter, a person that may or may not have a criminal record he might as well be a ghost, background check comes out clean, just another gun enthusiast adding to the collection. Until he takes his shiny new rifle and commits mass murder.

However this Florida shooting should never have happened. Firearms should not be so easy for minors to obtain. But many people in the States value gun rights more then things like affordable healthcare… I think there is something fundamentally deranged about that. But what do I know? I’m just a dumb urban liberal.

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Posted: 24 February 2018 07:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]
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DougC.V2 - 22 February 2018 11:36 AM

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The US Constitution is not written in stone, right now the republican party is in near total denial of the provisions contained in the US Constitution to guarantee voters rights for millions of Americans creating requirements that will in fact disenfranchise many based on bogus claims of voter “fraud”.

But they will not budge on an Amendment that is all but useless and is deadly to tens of thousands of Americans every year.

There is nothing patriotic in adamantly supporting the 2nd. Amendment no matter how much death it is causing the way it is now being applied, just as there is no patriotism in denying more and more Americans the right to vote.

I hope these young people get their act together, help vote out the totally corrupt politicians who take money from groups like the gun lobby then refuse to make changes to law that will actually protect Americans even if does hurt their donor masters.

The 2nd. Amendment needs to be amended or it will keep enabling the murder for money of thousands of Americans a year.

Indeed, the US Constitution is not perfect, nor were the founding fathers. In fact, the Constitution has been amended quite a few times since its first writing and initial amendments. The most notable of the changes is the 13th amendment, abolishing slavery. The talks of what the founding fathers intended and of not going against the intents of the founding fathers are lame excuses for not doing what would be right, for not making the needed progress.

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Posted: 24 February 2018 03:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]
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Sukhamaya (Sam) Bain - 24 February 2018 07:53 AM

Indeed, the US Constitution is not perfect, nor were the founding fathers. In fact, the Constitution has been amended quite a few times since its first writing and initial amendments. The most notable of the changes is the 13th amendment, abolishing slavery. The talks of what the founding fathers intended and of not going against the intents of the founding fathers are lame excuses for not doing what would be right, for not making the needed progress.

One of the most important things that the framers of the US Constitution understood is that society and technology change. They understood that the US Constitution is a living document that is designed in such a way as to allow for changes in society and technology.

In terms of the 2nd Amendment, the US stopped needing “well regulated militias” a long time ago. Also the firearms that the 2nd. Amendment was created to guarantee these citizens militias access to for the security of the state were very primitive compared to what is available now. How many people would the Las Vegas shooter have been able to hit let alone kill if he’d had a muzzle loading rifle for instance. It took soldiers of those days at least ten seconds to load a weapon, a more practical time would be about 20 seconds. So maybe the Las Vegas shooter it he’d had a rifle from the time the 2nd. Amendment was created could have got off 3 shots a minute times 10 minutes. So at most he could have got off 30 shots and if you’ve ever shot black powder you know how fast the barrel becomes fouled making loading each succeeding shot harder. And they are barely accurate at 100 yards, so let’s be generous and say 3 shots in ten hit someone. That’s 6 people wounded, and let’s also be generous with the lethality and say half die.

That would be 3 wounded and 3 dead for ten minutes of a shot every 20 seconds or so.

As compared to 59 dead and 850 wounded.

It’s crqazy how the NRA gun nuts want the 2nd. Amendment applied. They say it guarantees them access to virtually any weapon they want because the “founders” wanted it that way.

First off as you point out the founders were not creating a locked in stone religious document of how Americans must live, they were creating a flexible constitution under which Americans would have as much of liberty protected while allowing for basic security of the state.

But the NRA treats the 2nd. Amendment on the same level many would the Bible and make it such an emotional issue that it has been impossible to get past this deadly roadblock they have created.

And American society has changed dramatically since the days of the framing of the US Constitution, most people then lived in rural areas and needed to depend on their own resources for immediate survival. Most Americans now live packed into crowded cities where any vigilante gun “justice” is deadly.

And in the end that is what I think the NRA is fighting to preserve, their right to engage in vigilante killing like one of their most influential modern leaders did when he was young.

https://www.salon.com/2013/01/14/the_nra_once_supported_gun_control/

After Carter was re-elected to lead the NRA in 1981, The New York Times reported on Carter’s teenage vigilante killing—and how he changed his first name’s spelling to hide it. At first, he claimed the shooting was by someone else—and then recanted but refused to discuss it. Winkler writes, “the hard-liners in the NRA loved it. Who better to lead them than a man who really understood the value of a gun for self-protection?”

Which is complete nonsense, the framers of the US Constitution were not creating the means for people to engage in extra-judicial killing which is what the NRA is in de facto support of by making sure that so many weapons are constantly available to as many Americans as possible.

The 2nd. Amendment needs to be amended because it no longer reflects the rights of Americans and plays no role in the security of the state.

The way the NRA and other heavily armed far right wing groups treat the government is in fact a threat to the security of the US as are the huge number of people killed and wounded by firearms every year.

Until there is real gun control in the US I don’t think it can be considered a modern civilized nation, anarchy breaks out far too often as heavily armed civilians act out in highly sociopathic ways that have nothing to do at all with what the original framers of the Constitution had in mind.

The Constitution is not a Bible and the NRA doesn’t even represent the spirit of the Amendment anyway. If they want their right to firearms respected under the spirit of the 2nd.Amendment then they need to join a formal militia under government control and be equipped with muzzle loading black powder firearms.

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Posted: 24 February 2018 11:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]
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The Washington Post did a comparison of the reactions of Barack Obama and trump to tragic mass shootings of children at school, the differences are stark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHrvODeA8-E

I know that Obama wasn’t perfect, no one claimed he was… but trump isn’t even human. While in the very same situation Barack Obama spent hours with survivors and those who lost loved ones.

trumps at home and tweeting his usual idiocy. When he did show up it was for a brief photo op. Then went back to attacking everybody who doesn’t slavishly kiss his ass.

Obama tried to get real gun control bills through Congress that we all know will save lives. The republican controlled Congress killed them.

If you hate America and Americans just keep voting republican, they are well on the way to killing off the nation.

Why the hell do you think the Russians picked the party to place their traitor in the White House…

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Posted: 25 February 2018 01:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]
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This is such an insane situation, it’s not even known how many assault rifles there are in the US now.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article201882739.html

Lawmakers convene next week under pressure to consider limits on the purchase of assault rifles. But as congressional aides on both sides of the debate scramble to draw up background reports and statistics on the issue for their bosses, they’ll run into a basic informational roadblock: No one has any idea how many assault rifles are in circulation.

That’s intentional. By law, the government isn’t allowed to gather that metric and put it in a modern, searchable electronic database.

“Those numbers don’t exist because there’s no national registry,” said Jan Kemp, spokeswoman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. “Because by law, we are not allowed to have a national registry.”

The gun industry’s argument against a registry that tracks the sale of guns goes like this, according to former ATF agent Mark Jones: If the government kept a database on firearms sold, it would have a de facto registry of gun owners, and if that existed, then the government would be just a step away from being able to confiscate people’s guns.

Because the gun industry wants to keep selling millions more of these weapons it has used its lobbyists to make sure there isn’t even a way to know how many combat level weapons there are in civilian hands in the US and who has them. We don’t have to wonder if these weapons are being used in acts of domestic terror, we see it over and over.

Of what use are these weapons but to kill large numbers of people as quickly as possible. Rifles should be limited to hunter models with at most a five round integral clip that can’t be loaded quickly. Handguns should be limited to ten round clips at most and strictly limited in access. The NRA shouldn’t be able to decide if cities want to control guns in their limits, even back in the 1800s town could empower the sheriff to take the guns of people visiting and there were no guns allowed in many cases.

It’s a no brainer that no guns means no gun violence. And id the police aren’t spending all their time on crisis management with the constant and high level of violence that can do much more baseline policing that prevents crime in the first place.

It’s time to stop letting the gun industry decide what gun policy is going to be in the US.

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Posted: 26 February 2018 05:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]
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Rhea70 - 20 February 2018 04:28 PM

I worry that gun violence will never stop. But to be honest people having guns does not really concern me too much. I’m more worried that the fabric of our society is breaking down and all manner of inequalities are becoming worse. The Christians blame a lack of christian values; as they do with everything else including their packages being late, but I think its a very complicated problem.

Mainstream liberals are missing the point. Its not because of firearms, its due to a breakdown in the stability of our society. More and more people are falling though the cracks and even if you decide to repeal the second amendment this situation will only get worse. Although less people would likely get shot up on a daily basis.

Guns are certainly not helping anything. Society breaks down when mass murder is frequent and unstoppable. Civilized countries don’t have the mass murders we have. Why is that? Do they have magic wands?

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Posted: 26 February 2018 05:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]
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Rhea70 - 23 February 2018 07:07 PM

The second amendment purists are so damn insane. A right to bear arms should be reasonable and moderated, not the damn wild west. They treat the second amendment like holy scripture it’s bizarre. More guns will not stop gun violence. It will only cause a larger body count not only though shootings but just accidents, unintentional shootings are surprisingly common.  As I said this is a social issue as much as a legal issue. Currently its almost impossible to stop the “lone wolf” mass shooter, a person that may or may not have a criminal record he might as well be a ghost, background check comes out clean, just another gun enthusiast adding to the collection. Until he takes his shiny new rifle and commits mass murder.

However this Florida shooting should never have happened. Firearms should not be so easy for minors to obtain. But many people in the States value gun rights more then things like affordable healthcare… I think there is something fundamentally deranged about that. But what do I know? I’m just a dumb urban liberal.

The second amendment “purists” are not purists, they are frauds. The 2nd Amendment says the people’s rights to guns will not be infringed for one reason and one reason only,  “a well-regulated Militia is necessary to the safety and security of the people.” There have been no citizen militias called up—well-regulated or not—for at more than a hundred years. And I’m curious about that phrase “well-regulated”. Was that supposed to mean anything like the regulation of guns and people with guns? Just wondering.

Imagine if in todays military (militia) each member could own, carry, stockpile and use his guns with no supervision, any time of the day or night, anywhere. That’s what we have with the deliberate misreading of the second amendment that is the law of the land now. Anarchy and mass murder.

L

[ Edited: 26 February 2018 05:31 PM by LoisL ]
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Posted: 26 February 2018 09:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]
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If teachers are armed or ar just reputed to be armed, who is the first person a gunman is going to shoot in a school? A teacher is not hard to identify. So the guman picks off the person(s) he suspects may be armed, rhen shoots the kids, it would take only a split second to do the deed. I hope teachers resign en masse if they are odered to be armed or even reputed to be armed. Any teacher who would teach under those circumstances needs his or her head examined. Any teacher who agrees is as stupid as Trump and his sycophants who would suggest it. I’d like to see those right-wing gun nuts engage in a fire fight with each other. Now that would be a gun fight worth watching. Watch the cowards run like scared rabbits, with Trump at the head of the pack, bone spurs or not.

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Posted: 27 February 2018 07:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]
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Here’s something interesting

He Almost Shot Up a School. Here’s What Stopped Him
An assault weapons ban and ... love
http://www.newser.com/story/255646/he-almost-shot-up-a-school-heres-what-stopped-him.html
By Arden Dier,  Newser Staff
Posted Feb 21, 2018

(NEWSER) – After the Parkland school shooting, Colorado father of four Aaron Stark listened as his wife and daughter discussed the massacre of 17 people. “They could not understand what could make someone do this. Sadly, I can,” Stark writes in a letter to KUSA. “I was almost a school shooter.” It’s a confession perhaps as hard to hear as it is for Stark to air publicly. But it’s a conversation that must be had, Stark says. He tells KUSA a violent childhood and years of bullying led him to consider murder and suicide in 1996. “I was going to try to kill a lot of people and then kill myself,” he says, per NBC News. It had nothing to do with “the media, or video games, or music.” Rather, “I felt like I had nothing at all in life to look forward to and ... nothing to lose.”

But though he tried to find a gun, he wasn’t able to, in part because of an assault weapons ban in place from 1994 to 2004. “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people. But people with guns kill lots of people,” Stark writes. “Do we really need to have assault weapons?” he adds in an interview with MSNBC. But this issue is bigger than guns alone, says Stark, noting one kind act—a friend baking him a pie—kept him from committing suicide. Acknowledging “a severe lack of love” took a toll on his mental health, Stark now says “compassion is the only real way we can stop this.” Something as simple as “a kind word, a hug, saying ‘Hey how are you’ … could literally save someone’s life,” Stark tells MSNBC. “When you’re in the worst state and you think that no one cares, having someone actually care can make an entire world of difference.”

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